The Rusty George Podcast

Narrator: Welcome to Leading Simple with Rusty George. Our goal is to make following Jesus and leading others a bit more simple. Here's your host, Rusty George.

Rusty George: Welcome to the Leading Simple podcast. My name's Rusty George. I'm your host today, and I can't wait for you to hear this conversation. I've been hearing about this guy for years, Lance Witt, who is a pastor who worked at churches, such as Saddleback, uh, dealt with some great organizations and realized that he needed to help other pastors deal with burnout. And with being absolutely exhausted. He's written some great resources and now he's kind of considered by some, to be a pastor whisperer. And it really helps out all people when it comes to issues of stress, anxiety, and burnout.

And I think you're really gonna be blessed by what Lance has to say. Hey, today we are sponsored by Growmentum. Growmentum is an organization that helps your organization do more than just work in the role, but work _on_ the church or on the organization. They are an incredible group of guys that can send leaders out to your particular church and help you guys take the next step.

We've used them here at real life and we've recommended them to multiple churches and I've yet to have anybody. Complain about them. They do such a great job. So whether you're a church of a hundred and need some Growmentum, or you're a church of 10,000 and need to continue Growmentum, this is a group that can help you define goals, reach the goals and make sure you bring everybody along in the process. So, go to growmentumgroup.com to find out more.

Well, the conversation today is gonna help out a lot of pastors and just a lot of people, anybody who's felt anxious or stressed or worried or, uh, depressed. This is it. This is gonna help. Here we go with Lance Witt.

Lance. Great to have you on the podcast. As we usually start off with any of my guests, we get all of our, our sports bitterness out of the way. And you're a Denver Broncos fan and I'm a Kansas city chiefs fan, which right now is kind of bitter for you. So how are you handling.

Lance Witt: Wow. You just really go right for the jugular right from the beginning, Rusty. Um, yeah, it's been a hard season to, uh, be a Broncos fans, but we are working on our perseverance and, uh, you know, we're hoping for the magical coach. That's gonna take us to the playoffs next year.

Rusty George: So yes, I know. Well, I, I feel like I can, I can poke fun because John Elway. Peyton Manning caused me so much grief. And now we finally have a have a quarterback. So it's, it's been fun lately, but I'm sure you guys will come back around. You always do.

Lance Witt: Eventually, eventually we're counting on it. So,

Rusty George: Yes. Well, listen. For our audience that doesn't really know your story. You are a pastor, an author, and you wrote this book called Replenish um, would you explain to our audience a little bit about what the book is? What's it, what's it about and how it kind of flowed out of the overflow of your life and why you chose to write it?

Lance Witt: Yeah. Um, Replenish has been out... gosh, it seems hard to even say this now, but it's been out for about a decade and wow. Um, yeah, it's crazy to think that it's been out that long, but it really is. Kind of my own journey out of my own toxic season of life and ministry. Um, I think that my trajectory in ministry was like a lot of people's.

I, I love Jesus, love the local church, believe in the word of God, believe in the power of the gospel. And I set out. With a lot of ambition and zeal to kind of make a difference with my life and advance the kingdom. And so, you know, all of that sounds very noble and good, but along the way, I think I just began to be obsessed with sort of building the church and running at an insane pace.

And then in 1999, I got hired at Saddleback Church. Um, you know, I always kind of kiddingly say sometimes people like it was like being an alcoholic who. Uh, hired to be a bartender um, there was, there was a lot of stuff in the environment that wasn't very conducive for me to be healthy. And, um, I was there during the years that Rick wrote Purpose Driven Life and he became this global celebrity.

And while it was an intoxicating season of ministry influence, it was also pretty toxic in some ways and chaotic in my own soul. And to make a long story short. After seven years of being there, I stepped aside without any place to go without another ministry to go to. And, um, I, I, didn't just long, Rusty for a different way to do ministry. I longed for a different way to do life.

Mm. And I began kind of a journey of what would it look like to actually bring my soul back to life and live and lead out of a healthy soul. And so Replenish, it was sort of my early days of wrestling with some deep, profound questions around my soul and health and what was important in life. And, um, so it feels pretty raw as I go back and look at it now.

Um, I, I'm not sure I had a ton of answers, but I had some suspicions and I was kind of following those hopefully to a healthier life.

Rusty George: I wanna ask you about just kind of your discovery that you were burning out or you were. You were addicted to workaholism? Uh, because I think there are many of us that feel like, yeah, I work too much and my kids give me a guilt trip. My spouse gives me a guilt trip, but I'm providing for them when you're in the ministry. It's a different level of guilt trip because you think. I'm serving the Lord. Yeah. Or I'm saving someone's marriage or I'm saving someone's soul, which that's a whole weird way to say that, cuz we know it's Jesus, that does that.

But right. There's this a little bit of Messiah complex that we have. I could either stay here and help this person find Jesus or help this marriage be saved or go home and watch The Voice, you know? So what am I gonna do? Well, of course, I'm gonna choose this. I wanna make God happy. And thus, my family should be cheering me on.

Doesn't always work that way. How'd, you know, you were out of balance?

Lance Witt: Um, well I think again, there's some typical symptoms that tend to emerge in all of us. I think one is, um, just lots of feeling of stress. Um, some anxiety that I hadn't experienced up to that time, um, anger often seems just beneath the surface and then probably the most definitive way it played out in our lives was it caused stress in my home. Hmm. And, um, my wife was a pretty good sport and she would rock along pretty good with, you know, the insane pace of our lives. And then we'd have, you know, sort of one of those come to Jesus meetings. and. You know, we kind of, we, we recycled the same conversation many times, but I, I remember, you know, she would say, Hey, you're just never home.

And I don't get time with you and the kids don't get time with you. And even when you're home, you're not really home. You're just checked out. You're always working. And I would always say something like, Hey, you know, it's just for a season and it just comes with ministry. This is just the price tag of serving the Lord in the local church.

And, and I remember one day, gosh, with tears in her eyes and a lot of anger in her voice, she just stopped me in mid-sentence and just said, there's always a reason or a season why you can't be who you're supposed to be. Mm. And, um, You know, she was right. And I look back on that and I think one of the best days of my life was the day that I began to realize that I was responsible for the health of my own soul and that I wasn't a victim.

And that actually I was who I was because of decisions that I was making. And mm-hmm, no one was holding a gun to my head. I was who I was because. I was leading myself that way. And so those were some of the signs and symptoms that, uh, I was not doing well. Mm-hmm and again, there's some other stuff that I've discovered, um, that lie underneath that, but at least initially those were sort of the outward evidences mm-hmm uh,

Rusty George: When you say that she said you're not being the person that you need to be. Uh, what did you take that to mean? Who was the person that you were not becoming?

Lance Witt: Uh, I think she, you know, I took it to mean, Hey, you, you, you know, you're a pastor and you're, you know, fine up on the platform and you know how to do the church drill. But when it comes to like being present with your family, yeah. Engaging your kids. Meaningful conversation with her because her love language is quality time. Like all of those things I would've certainly told others to do. I was woefully deficient in, but again, I could always rationalize it because I was doing it for Jesus' sake. Right. And, and I, I think one of the words that has come to really help reshape my life going forward is the word limits. Hmm. And to understand that God gave every one of us limits. Limits of physical health, limits of time, limits of seasons of life. And that actually those limits are a gift from God and learning to live within your limits is part of the path toward living a healthier life.

Rusty George: Now you talk a lot about this when it comes to the healthy rhythm of life. Can you explain a little bit of that to us? Because I think most of us are trying to find balance. Yeah. And it seems like balance is just not possible, but a rhythm right. Could be. What does that look like? How do we play that out in our lives?

Lance Witt: Yeah, this one has been such a huge game changer for me, because I think I've always had this type A sort of driven personality, always a hurrier kind of just, you know, compulsively busy.

And so this idea of living with rhythm, embracing, rest, having space in my. Learning to be quiet. All of that was new territory for me. And you would think being a pastor, I would have embraced a lot of that, but actually I think a lot of my training and even following a lot of, you know, well known church leaders, it was just go and go all the time beyond 24/7.

And so part, I think of what I began to realize is that, um, I didn't know how to be still. I didn't know how to be quiet. I didn't know how even just. Be with God. And so I began this journey to try to learn how to have a rhythm of life that is about yeah. Work hard. But then unplug hard and create space in your life and have downtime and quiet.

And that was, you know, has been a huge game changer for me, probably the most practical thing has been the implementation of Sabbath into my life. Hm. And I always challenge leaders. Like you should go and look biblically and come to some sense of conviction about what you believe about this biblically.

Because if you don't, I think the gravitational pull of busyness in our culture will always win the day. And until you put a stake in the ground and go, Hey, actually, this is God's best for me. From the very beginning of time he modeled this rhythm of. Work hard and then rest well produce and then restore.

And so I've been building over these last 15 years trying to implement this rhythm of, yeah. I wanna be productive. Yeah. I wanna get after it. Yeah. I wanna make a difference, but I have to have a rhythm that keeps my tank filled up. Uh, and you know, this, and I, I know this, that like the worst place you can try to do ministry from is when you're empty and running on fumes.

Rusty George: Right.

Lance Witt: I always tell people, it always leads to one of three things, disillusionment, burnout, or cynicism, or maybe all three, you know, in some cases. And so, uh, I think it's essential, especially coming out of this pandemic. Where leaders have been so criticized, they've had to pivot so many times they've had to step up in their leadership.

And so they're drained and they're exhausted. And so if there was ever a time, we need to sort of grab our calendars by the throat and actually have a healthy rhythm. It really is right now.

Rusty George: Okay. Every leader I talk to, especially those in ministry, that's over the age of 50 talks about Sabbath.

Lance Witt: Yeah.

Rusty George: And the need to have it.

Every leader I talk to under the age of 50 talks about, uh, yeah. I have moments when I settle down, I have a pocket of time here or a pocket of time there. Just drill down on Sabbath for a little bit. What does that mean? Uh, is that just a day off? Is it just a hobby? Yeah. Is it possible to have a couple hours here and there? Get real specific for us and how not only you, maybe other leaders, you know, have practiced sabbath.

Lance Witt: Yeah. And I would say to people, Hey, start where you are. And if right now it's a couple of hours or it's a half a day, a week that you can take. But I think, um, you wanna move toward the rhythm of biblical what I call the biblical rhythm of one in seven, where you have a day, every week that is set aside and it's not a day off.

Because I think for most of us, our days off are just work of a different kind. Hmm. I think Sabbath is something different. So a, a big change for me, Rusty was two things. One actually putting it on my calendar every week. There's something about blocking that time and reserving it. And then. Not calling it a day off, but calling it Sabbath because Sabbath ought to communicate something different.

So I'll give you five words that I've used in my own life to frame out how I think about what that day should look like. Because you know, if you're a young mom with kids at home, um, that's gonna look different than where I am at age 63 now being an empty nester. But that's why I think you have to go back to, do you believe this is a biblical command because then if it is.

Then we should set about trying to figure it out. Mm. So, the five words I use are prepare because there's some work involved in getting ready not to work. Mm-hmm so there's some chores that might need to be done ahead of time. Clearing the schedule, thinking about even your meals ahead of time. So it's prepare. Then it's stop. That's what the word Sabbath literally means. It just means to quit or to stop or to cease. And so I'm often asking leaders, what would it look like for you to stop for 24 hours. Stop from anything that is feeling like you have to be productive or accomplish something. I often say if it feels like an ought to, I try to stay away from it on Sabbath.

If it feels like a get to, I try to embrace that in my Sabbath. So prepare, stop. That's good. The third word is rest. Um, the Bible talks about is a day of rest. It's the Hebrew word? Manha it means. Tranquil repose. It's the idea of not just physical rest, but actually being at rest in my soul. Hmm. And I don't know about you, but gosh, that just sounds great.

You know, if I could actually get there. Yeah. And then the fourth word is delight. I think a lot of Christians are delight deficient. So Isaiah 58 talks about delighting in Sabbath. So, I often ask leaders, like, what is it that you do that is life giving for you? Can you build that into your Sabbath? Mm. And then the last word I use is worship.

Rusty George: Mm-hmm.

Lance Witt: I think part of the reason God gave us Sabbath is to ensure that we would have more unhurried quality time to just be with him. Mm. So we linger over the word a little longer. We take a walk where we express gratitude. We put on some worship music and we have a day that is about those things then about striving and pushing and acquiring and accomplishing.

Rusty George: Hmm.

Lance Witt: And I, I think everybody hears that and goes, I want more of that in my life. Yep. But, um, when I first started, I actually hated it because I didn't know how to be still inside. Even if I slowed down my schedule, internally, my RPMs were still redlining.

Rusty George: Mm-hmm.

Lance Witt: So I think for every leader, there's an internal and external journey around this.

There's the external journey of blocking the calendar reserving the time planning, what a Sabbath is gonna be, but there's also the internal journey of learning to actually slow down mm-hmm and to be okay with not striving and trust me, this is still a challenge for me, but I now look forward to it, cuz no matter how busy my week is, it's sort of the carrot on the end of the stick of a crazy week. And I know like, Hey, I can make it cuz Sabbath is coming. So hopefully that helps a little.

Rusty George: Well, it, it does help a lot. Let me just say, first of all, you worked at Saddleback for eight years, I think. Yeah. I was expecting those five points to start with the same letter. You know, if, if Rick taught you anything, it's that?

Lance Witt: Yes.

Rusty George: But I think what, what really is the, the thing that I struggle with on Sabbath is I don't know how to win. Ah, because, you know, it's that checking of the box. It's that the message is complete. I made that phone call. I wrote that letter that is such a dopamine rush for type A people. Yeah. I catch myself sometimes, cuz I think, am I just doing this to get it done or am I doing it to do it well, when it comes to different tasks, I think the hard thing for Sabbath for most of us is, is we don't know how to succeed at it.

Yeah. And what I hear you saying is sometimes it's just the quiet. That is the success in. .

Lance Witt: Yeah, I think honestly, that's exactly the point is that it's not about you having to achieve, so there's, there's a really interesting moment that happens in the book of Deuteronomy chapter five, where the 10 commandments are reiterated again.

And in Exodus, God anchors the command of Sabbath in creation. He says six days, I created the world seventh day. I rested. Therefore I want you to model the same thing and practice Sabbath. But in Deuteronomy five, as he's talking about Sabbath, he now says you used to be slaves in Egypt. And now that you're under my dominion, um, you know, I want you to practice Sabbath.

Mm. And I, here's the point I think he's making, that's been really important for me is in Egypt, there was no time off. It was produce all the time. It was more bricks, less straw, achieve. And God is saying, now that you're under my dominion, my people do life differently. My people stop and my people rest. And I think the deeper message God was communicating was this: your value to me is not in what you produce. Mm. Even when you're doing nothing on a Sabbath, you are just as valuable to me. Now that's been one I've been working on for 15 years to actually believe that. Mm. Cause I've always found my validation and significance in what I achieve and do. And part of Sabbath is learning to say, I can just be, yeah, a son or a daughter, and that's enough.

Rusty George: Hey, I want to interrupt just to say thanks to growmentumgroup.com. Growmentum is sponsoring the podcast and they can help your church go further, faster. So, make sure you check out growmentumgroup.com.

Yeah, it is interesting that, uh, what you described just a second ago sounds like what the typical Sunday used to be for a lot of people long before sports took over Sundays, but it's this idea of going to worship. You know, Sunday dinner nap, uh, maybe Sunday night church, uh, youth group get ready for the work week.

There's a little bit of Sabbath, which could still be possible for people that, uh, don't work in the church for those of us that do Sundays, anything but Sabbath, so, right. Well, you work with a lot of pastors. Do you find it better? And maybe there's not a yes or no on this, but do you find it better to do the Sabbath? Like on a day before Sunday, some do Friday or Saturday? Or to do it after Sunday, like a Monday. Yeah,

Lance Witt: I think pastors are all over the map. And I think some of it actually depends on your wiring. Like some pastors, the end of the week, they're ramping up toward the weekend services and they can't imagine like having a day unplugged.

And so for them, like I was just with a pastor today, Mondays for him is that day. But I work with some other churches where. Friday is Sabbath. And so I think it, you have to be a student of your own soul and your own rhythms mm-hmm and figure out what works best for you. I think that the, to me, the core principle is making it one in seven.

Rusty George: Yeah.

Lance Witt: That's the thing, whatever day you do. I think it really doesn't matter. And some people, you know, Like to start in the evening and go through the, the next evening, which is of course classically what the Jews did. Right. So I think it's more around finding that 24 hour period for you that you can designate and who would've ever thought it would be so hard to just unplug and do nothing.

Right. Right. But it seems like an extreme sport in our generation, especially with our technology and devices. Yeah. Where we're constantly plugged in all the time.

Rusty George: Right. Okay. So part of what we're talking about is being self aware. to figure out mm-hmm , you know, what works for you and knowing what you need. You talk a lot about the difference between self awareness and self deception. Why is that such a valuable thing for us to understand?

Lance Witt: Um, because I think most leaders don't have self-awareness around their internal life and, and I, I would trace this Rusty all the way back to even when I became a Christian. And I would describe my church's attempt to disciple me as mostly behavior modification. Yep. Like start doing the right things, stop doing the wrong things. And I, and I get it. That's a huge part of the Christian life is modifying our conduct, but I think what got missed was all this stuff inside of me that needed to be transformed, that needed to be addressed, that's part of my sanctification that really never got addressed. And so I think one reason this self-awareness issue is so important is because we haven't talked about it that much in recent, in, in the church until the, the recent years that we've kind of been talking about emotional health and the inner journey and stuff like that.

And so I feel. You know, um, you know, the statement I'll often use is self-awareness is your best defense against self deceit. Mm. And for a lot of leaders, the lid they have in their ministry is lack of self-awareness mm-hmm , you know, uh, they become defensive every time they're criticized and they don't really stop to ask, like, What's behind that?

So one of the exercises I lead people through in self-awareness and often it's rooted in our family of origin, right? Our, our, the scripts we earn early on in life, my friend, Pete Guero, um, often says, Jesus may live in your heart, but grandpa lives in your bones. and, and it, and it's so true, but I, I lead them through this exercise where I have them identify the internal script that has been a driver in their life.

The narrative, they constantly tell themselves. Mm. And so I've gone back and I've been able to articulate, like for me, I, and I know I got this from my dad who is a great Christian, but in his generation responsibility was the highest of value. So the internal script that has driven my life is work hard, be responsible, achieve. That's how you succeed. And that's how you get loved. Mm-hmm well, when that's the story, you are constantly telling yourself you're only as good as your latest achieve. And for most of us, that narrative is rooted in a lie. So, I will say to people write down that script and then on the back of a three by five card, write down what is God's truth as it relates to that.

Rusty George: Wow.

Lance Witt: That, that, that I am loved unconditionally. I am enough. I don't have to try to prove myself to somebody or to try to prove myself to the world. Like. I can receive that gift of sonship. And so I've just found tremendous power in becoming aware and being able to articulate some of that broken stuff inside of me.

And what's behind it. Often we try to deal with the symptoms externally, but we don't get down to what's that broken place in me. That God wants to heal, that he wants to transform. That's gonna make me a better person and a better leader.

Rusty George: You know, for us pastors, the, uh, the scorecard comes out every Sunday, uh, with attendance, buildings and cash, the ABCs. And SP uh, specifically attendance and what's, I've noticed happened in my soul and to every other pastor I know is since post COVID attendance has dropped by about 50%, um, at, you know, and some, sometimes as at the best as 30%. And you just don't see, it's not the energy in the room you once felt. It's not this feeling of success on a Sunday afternoon when you drive home. And that's a lot of that's because we've got our scorecards all messed up.

What would you tell a pastor that is just feeling like, boy, I'm not doing this right. I should get out of the ministry. I'm burned out. I'm exhausted. COVID took its toll on me. Um, you know, we've seen a lot of people make bad decisions before COVID and now certainly during and after how would you talk somebody off that ledge, proverb and just kinda get them ready for that next season.

Lance Witt: Well, the first thing I would do is just empathize with that leader and go, you are right. This has been an incredibly hard season and I think. One of the things I think I'm finally learning to do Rusty is to actually sit with people a little better in their pain and also realize that there is grief and loss.

And in the church, we don't do grief and loss. We just quickly move on. And so I think the first thing I would say is, I'm sorry, and you're right. It has been incredibly hard and I'm, you know, I've been in ministry now 45 plus years. It's never been more complicated, more complex than what you guys are leading through right now, boots on the ground, down in the trenches and never more criticized.

It doesn't matter what you say. Um, you know, somebody's gonna take offense at, somebody's gonna leave the church over it. And um, so I think I would say one, I, I. You know, I, I understand at some level what you're feeling and going through, but then I would also take, you know, back to our call, like, Hey, what we're doing matters.

And yes, the attendance may not be there. And the truth is all of us have found way too much of life and significance in our weakened attendance. Mm-hmm and I think it's time for us to kind of go, Hey, Let's just push the reset button. Let's start where we are. Let's begin to, to go back to the basics of preaching the gospel and helping people, you know, love Jesus and build spiritual disciplines into their lives and be great husbands and wives and dads and moms.

And, and let's go back to the basics. And then I would look that pastor or leader in the eye and go, and the first place to start is you have to take care of yourself. . Yeah. And one of the core teachings I give in my ministry is self-care is not selfish. It's good stewardship. Hmm. And you stewarding well, you're one and only life.

That's not selfish, so right. You need time off. You need time for your spouse. Uh, don't compromise your spiritual practices right now. Um, and so you gotta take care of yourself, make sure your take is filled up so that you actually can be spirit led, be prayerful. You can love on people. You can be a good shepherd right now, cuz there's nothing worse than trying to be passionate about the gospel when actually you don't have any passion left in you. Right. And so I think for you to fill your own tank up would be, you know, one and I'd say like dial in how you're living your personal day to day life. And, uh, probably a verse I would share. It's one I've been captivated by the last year.

1 Thessalonians 4, Paul says, make it your ambition to lead a quiet life. Yeah. And I would say, you know, make it your ambition to live a great daily life. There's a lot, you can't control in this COVID world, but you can control how you live Tuesday. Mm-hmm and what you do with your time on Thursday and who you love on Wednesday. And so control what you can and, you know, uh, focus on the basics. So anyway...

Rusty George: That's great. Uh, one of the things that you do, which is really helpful and has been helpful for some on our staff is you're a sabbatical coach. Yeah. And we hear this term a lot in ministry, and I I've heard a, a few schools of thought on this and I'd love for you to give us some clarity as to when a pastor should take a sabbatical and what a successful sabbatical is.

Uh, I've heard some people say. You should take one every seven years, some every decade. Um, I've heard some people say sabbatical is an academic thing. It's for those that are not in leadership, just in academic, so they can work on their next degree or write their next book. So just take four or five weeks off in a row every single summer.

And then you'll be fine. So what's the value of a long extended three month to six month sabbatical? Is it needed? Uh, if a person PR practices good Sabbath, do they need it? And how do you do a good sabbatical? Whether it's four weeks or three months. .

Lance Witt: Yeah. Gosh, there's a lot in there. That's a lot. Just a few questions. Uh, yeah, just a, just a little bit. Um, of course, as a, as someone who's worked with a lot of leaders, I do see the value and especially people who are higher up in the, in church organizations in large, you know, mid-size larger churches. The level of responsibility and pressure that they carry. I think most people can't fully grasp until you've actually sat in that seat.

And so I do think as a way of sort of blessing and encouragement and recalibrating to bless that leader with a sabbatical every 5, 7, 8 years, I. Tens a little long. I do like five or seven. Um, I think the lead, the length of it could depend on kind of where that leader is, but I also having just come off of a three month sabbatical myself at the end of 2021.

What I love about that is. Gosh, that feeling, especially early on in Sabbath, where you go, I can actually take a breath and I can exhale. And I don't have to think in two weeks about starting back again and planning my preaching calendar. And so I think, um, you know, to put a, a good length of time in there that in, and I would say minimum six weeks, and I think three months is a great amount of time having now coached a lot of leaders through this.

Hmm. Um, I always say to people. You're probably gonna come into your sabbatical more exhausted than you realize. And so I always say to them, front load your sabbatical with physical rest mm-hmm and some leaders would look at you and go, man, I'm good. I don't need it. But when they actually stop and their body stops, mm-hmm , they are tired.

And so I goes like, spend some days at home, take some naps, sleep in if you want to, but front load it with some physical rest. And then I always say, do something just for yourself. Something you've always wanted to do just for you. A lot of pastors, they give their whole lives for everybody else. They don't, haven't done anything for themselves in a long time, do something with your family, like your spouse.

If you got kids, do a family trip. Um, and then I always encourage them also like toward the end of your sabbatical, do a personal retreat, get alone with God. and ask him what he spoke to you during your sabbatical should translate as you go back to work now. Hmm. And then to slowly ramp into, uh, work don't, don't go from zero to a hundred.

Um, I probably would, could have done a little better job myself coming out of sabbatical to just sort of slowly, um, You know, take that back to, to full capacity. Um, but it's, it, it, it was everything I would've hoped. It would be for me personally, it was great for my marriage. I read a lot. I, I just enjoyed our kids and grandkids and I was ready to now dive back into this next ministry season.

Um, but I, I would say to like a group of elders or a board at a church. Like your pastor will be a better person, if you will build this into the rhythm and yeah, you may go, gosh, you know, they don't do that for me at my work. And I always say to people, but wouldn't it be nice if they did? Mm-hmm wouldn't it be nice if they actually valued?

The need to recalibrate and sort of reinvent and dream again, especially coming out of this season that we've been in. So mm-hmm, , I've just, you know, and I I'll, I'll say it like this Rusty, about half of the leaders I coach they're coming into a sabbatical in a bit of a, a crisis or triage. Like mm-hmm, , they're not in a good way.

And that wasn't me as I went in my sabbatical, I, I, I think about 50%. It's not that it's like. Hey, I'm in a good place, but this sabbatical is gonna help me to even be in a better place. Yeah. To have time to be with God, to think, to dream about the future. And, um, and, and it was all of that. And then some, for me.

Rusty George: You know, one of the things that you did so well for us when our executive pastor went on a sabbatical was to talk to, uh, me and our board about what he needs. Yeah. And I, I would say that for people that are listening to this thinking, man, that would be great. My board would never go for it. Or I got leaders that would never sign off on that. You provide resources to help them. What's the best way people can contact you and maybe learn from you, or even get you to talk to their elders and say, yeah, he needs a sabbatical.

Lance Witt: Yeah, I think the easiest way is just, uh, be happy to respond to an email. It's just lance@replenish.net, or you can go to our, my website, pretty simple website, but it's replenish.net. Got some resources there and some opportunities to connect. Um, yeah, and I think you're right, because I can say some things to a board that if the pastor or leader said it, it might sound self-serving, it would feel awkward to say it. Right. But I, because now I have all this experience of doing this. I can say that to your board in a way that is maybe a little easier. To get to the, the stuff then if you were to say it.

Rusty George: Exactly, that's so good. Well, Lance, this has been fantastic, great, great information for everybody listening, whether you're a leader of a church or in a church. Um, and then certainly for everybody to pick up a copy of that book replenish it's fantastic. Go to the website, replenish.net for more information. Uh, Lance, thank you for all. You've done. Not just for us today, but for the kingdom at large and for all the leaders you've impacted.

Lance Witt: Well, thank you, Rusty. And I have great appreciation for you. We haven't gotten to know each other, all that well, but I have respected you and followed you from a distance, and I'm just grateful for what you're doing again, down in the trenches of local church life and leading the way. So thank you. And thanks for letting me be with you today.

Rusty George: I appreciate it. Thank you, Lance.

Well, thank you, Lance. It was so great to talk to you and I'm so thankful for your support of the podcast and being involved, thankful to a Growmentum for their. And I wanna ask you, if you would, please leave a review, we are gonna collect all of these reviews and then give away something at the end of the summer. So make sure that you're gonna leave us a review. That would just be fantastic. Uh, it helps us get the word out as to what we're trying to do and help people lead simple.

So next week we'll be back. Oh, my goodness. I cannot believe I get to say these words. I get to have an interview with the world series winning manager of the Kansas city, Royals, Ned Yoast. You're thinking what does this have to do with church? Well, more than you think Ned is a great follower of Jesus. Ned led a greater organization. Ned brought an organization out of the ruins to world championship status. And to hoisting that world series trophy cannot wait for you to hear my conversation with Ned Yost next week, as always thank you so much for listening and keep it simple.

Narrator: Take a moment and subscribe to the podcast. So you'll get it delivered every week and subscribe to the Rusty George YouTube channel for more devotionals messages and fun videos. Thank you for listening to Leading Simple.