The Rusty George Podcast

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Narrator
Welcome to Leading Simple with Rusty George. Our goal is to make following Jesus and leading others a bit more simple. Here's your host, Rusty George.

00;00;19;00 - 00;00;40;27
Rusty George
Hey, welcome to Leading Simple. I am so honored to have you with us today. We are sponsored by our good friends at Stadia Church Planting. Stadia works to help people plant churches. More churches are closing their doors right now that are being planted, and we need to reverse that trend. You might be thinking, “Hey, you know what, I don't think I could plant a church, but I could certainly help a planter”.

00;00;41;07 - 00;01;08;01
Rusty George
You could do that very easily by going to Stadia Church Planting board and making a donation that will help more churches get started. Right now, a real church. We are working to launch more churches and in doing so we are trying to raise money and find church planners to do that. In fact, we're doing an initiative called 30 by 30. 30 churches by the year 2030, and we are seven churches in. Love to have you be a part of that.

00;01;08;08 - 00;01;30;13
Rusty George
You can find out more at reallifechurch.org. Well, today I get to have a conversation with a woman that started as a volunteer in her church and then joined their staff, oversaw communications, worked with the worship team, and eventually became number two in the organization: the executive pastor. Now, maybe you're thinking “I don’t work in a church.

00;01;30;13 - 00;01;45;00
Rusty George
This isn't going to mean anything to me”. I'm telling you what you're going to learn from her when it comes to leadership will benefit you no matter what you do. And some of you are thinking, “You know what? I need an executive pastor”. She's going to talk to you about what one does and what you might need in that- that role.

00;01;45;24 - 00;02;05;29
Rusty George
And some of you were thinking, “I am an executive pastor and I need a little bit of encouragement”. She's going to do that for you today. Her name is Jody TONER. Really? You're going to love hearing from her. She serves an incredible, great church up in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, the Ridge Community Church, a thriving fast growing multi-site church in the Milwaukee area.

00;02;06;06 - 00;02;24;24
Rusty George
And they're still celebrating the Milwaukee Bucks, winning the title a little over a year ago. She started as a volunteer. Now she's helping lead the staff. You're going to be blessed by what Jody has to say. So here we go. Jodi Tonarelli, thank you so much for joining us. Is that last name Italian?

00;02;26;14 - 00;02;31;03
Jodi Tonarelli
It belongs to a very, very handsome Italian man. Yes. And I'm glad to have it.

00;02;31;17 - 00;02;40;03
Rusty George
Okay. Is he 100% Italian? 50. 50. Okay. So you only have bread at every other meal then? Not every meal.

00;02;40;16 - 00;02;47;15
Jodi Tonarelli
We. I have one child that is bread addicted, the other that is pasta addicted. So we are an equal opportunity carb offender in the house.

00;02;48;22 - 00;02;58;08
Rusty George
Okay. Well, this is for our audience that they may not know your story. Tell us a little bit about your journey and- and what it is you're currently doing at the church you serve.

00;02;58;22 - 00;03;31;05
Jodi Tonarelli
Well, thanks. First of all, I came on staff at the Ridge Community Church, we’re located in Greenfield, Wisconsin, so just outside Milwaukee. I came on staff just over six years ago and started part time in communications. Part time, you know, 20 billable hours and 35 extra a week on the couch at night. Right. Like most other part time staff workers at a church and just realized after leaving [the] corporate world to do this, that it was like so much more than I ever thought it would be.

00;03;31;29 - 00;03;58;20
Jodi Tonarelli
And so spent a couple of years part time, then came on staff full time overseeing our experience division. That's what we call it here. Every church calls it something different, but it's those touch points that a guest interacts with first. So our communications, our guest services, our programming and arts teams and video and that kind of thing. And then earlier last year, so maybe, gosh, eight or nine months ago, I accepted the role as executive pastor.

00;03;59;05 - 00;04;09;23
Rusty George
Hmm. Wow. That's- that's quite a jump there. And we want to dig into that just a little bit. But tell us a little bit about your- your business background before joining the Ridge team.

00;04;10;02 - 00;04;36;26
Jodi Tonarelli
Yeah, I never, ever, ever would have seen myself on staff at a church. So my degree is definitely not a Bible degree. I have a degree in broadcast journalism and political science and wanted to since I was age two be in the news media. And my mom has pictures of me standing in our kitchen when I was a toddler holding a wooden spoon like I was doing the news or talking to somebody, anybody who would listen.

00;04;37;09 - 00;05;03;07
Jodi Tonarelli
So I left college with a degree and started working immediately in the news industry. Specifically, I was a radio news reporter and anchor for 15 years before coming on staff, and that's the role that I left. But I actually got to spend five of those 15 years in your neck of the woods working for KFI so that was by far the most adrenaline packed season of the 15.

00;05;03;16 - 00;05;11;05
Jodi Tonarelli
But I've also hiked Temescal Canyon in your backyard more times than I can count. So. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I know the area.

00;05;11;17 - 00;05;16;07
Rusty George
Okay, well, that's. And yet you still decided to go to Milwaukee, huh?

00;05;16;20 - 00;05;25;03
Jodi Tonarelli
Well, I mentioned the Italian. He is really, really good looking. So he is here and our families are here, too.

00;05;26;09 - 00;05;45;29
Rusty George
Okay. For our listeners that may not be familiar with Milwaukee, I have been there. You're- your lead pastor. One of my closest friends in the world, Mark Weigt. He warned me about it, but nothing could prepare me for it. Describe Milwaukee in a few sentences.

00;05;46;14 - 00;06;10;26
Jodi Tonarelli
We love beer. We love cheese and brats. We love our sports. Local sports teams used to be only just the Packers, but now we have seen the Bucks. Obviously just take over the NBA and the Brewers are there as well. So we love sports of all kinds. Love being outdoors. Beautiful, beautiful area here. Most months out of the year, if you don't like snow,
00;06;10;26 - 00;06;31;29
Jodi Tonarelli
There are three or four months that are going to be real tough for you. And then I think the other thing is we have blue collar roots here. So there is a homer mentality where you're going to favor the local guy all the time and even if you have a white collar job or a white collar degree, that blue collar mentality has lasted.

00;06;32;12 - 00;06;55;28
Jodi Tonarelli
So you want to be known as a hard worker. You want to be known as humble. If you're going to be proud about anything, it's your sports team, not yourself or any achievement you have made so that- that even with the transition to millennials and Gen Z kind of coming into age of their own, I think has stuck with our city even as we grow more white collar industry.

00;06;55;28 - 00;06;57;25
Jodi Tonarelli
The blue collar mentality is huge here.

00;06;58;14 - 00;07;26;00
Rusty George
Hmm. Does that make them hesitant towards large organizations to, you know, big box brands? And I'm asking specifically when it comes to churches. You know, right now, all the well, certainly pre-COVID, the- the fad was more campuses, one big church brand all over the place. Does that work against you at a place like Milwaukee?

00;07;26;00 - 00;07;46;14
Jodi Tonarelli
I think if done right, it doesn't necessarily. Big box stores are going to have a hard time here. More so now than ever. People want to support the little guy or the family business. We see more than just downtown Milwaukee, which we don't have the traffic and the gridlock, you know, ten lanes in each direction like you're sitting on the 405,

00;07;46;14 - 00;08;06;22
Jodi Tonarelli
Right? Trying to get to LAX. That's a nightmare here. You can get just about anywhere in 20 to 25 minutes. So even going downtown for a night, out to dinner, out to see the bucks at Pfizer, that's all easily doable from a suburb. The transition we're seeing, though, is these suburban communities wanting some of what downtown Milwaukee has.

00;08;07;00 - 00;08;36;11
Jodi Tonarelli
So the resurgence is building up, even if it isn't an old thing that you can make new again, almost faking it to create little downtown environments within suburbs. So there is some place within a suburb that is easily walkable or more communal in nature. You see people seeking those connections. I think if we are a larger church with several smaller campuses, we get larger through this idea of multiplication that is definitely still doable.

00;08;36;19 - 00;08;58;25
Jodi Tonarelli
The idea of building a big box church home that's going to seat, you know, eight or 10,000, even 5, that's just ridiculous. No, nobody here would want to be a part of that. But, you know, bigger through lots of smaller, definitely. And that also gives you the freedom to then reflect that homer mentality, hyper local mentality through whatever that campus is going to look like.

00;08;59;11 - 00;09;06;24
Jodi Tonarelli
The campus pastor that's leading there and then the other leaders surrounding that campus pastor that have- have voices in the game as well.

00;09;07;07 - 00;09;26;07
Rusty George
Hmm. That's great insight. Okay. I want to ask you about something that a lot of our listeners have, either done or they have wanted to do, and that is leave the corporate world to go work at a church. Yeah, it's I mean, I know that for many it sounds like, oh, that would be wonderful. You all believe the same thing.

00;09;26;07 - 00;09;47;06
Rusty George
You know, you just pray together all day and do Bible studies and sing worship songs. So but on another hand, it's very difficult because suddenly your- your place of worship becomes your place of work. Your pastor becomes your boss. You know, you see kind of the, you know, the behind the scenes, which at the end of the day, we're all just people trying to do our best.

00;09;47;19 - 00;09;53;07
Rusty George
What was hard for you? What was easy for you? What do you wish you would have known coming to work for a church?

00;09;53;28 - 00;10;14;25
Jodi Tonarelli
I thought the finances would be hard. Right? And God just works out math better than I could. And I had a spouse and a house and kids and stuff, so that was amazing. Just to see God moving. I- like I said at the beginning, I never, ever pictured a day where I wouldn't want to do news or to share people's stories.

00;10;15;04 - 00;10;40;00
Jodi Tonarelli
And I had people kind of looking at me sideways, going, You have the ability to speak to however many people in a given day. You're crazy. Why would you give that up? All right. The ego and the pride side of it and God's shift in me, at least the thing that I learned is how much more I have to learn about influence versus the scale of the communication.

00;10;40;00 - 00;11;17;26
Jodi Tonarelli
It wasn't about big numbers, it was about big transformation in individuals. And so for me personally, I will just say, man, it's God doing a work in me that I've been most surprised about how much I need to be here. How much- you know, you said we're broken people doing this messy thing called ministry. How much I need to be around this all day to really affirm for me how far I have to go and nothing does that like seeing God move and make change in individual people's lives and seeing them say yes in a new way, or then submit to his call on them in a new way.

00;11;18;06 - 00;11;36;00
Jodi Tonarelli
And that just gives me energy to keep going and to keep saying yes to the next thing that He's asking me to do. Because you know better than just about anybody, it isn't easy. On a regular and routine basis. It is not easy. It's giving up your personal preferences. And we talk a lot about that behind the scenes.

00;11;36;00 - 00;12;02;11
Jodi Tonarelli
Giving up whatever those personal preferences are- not that you don't have them, they're still there. But deferring to the mission and Jesus being the primary. Now, that's not to say with ministry, everything's predictable. I mean, people are messy and broken. And the amount of things that are now on my job duties list that I never, ever thought I would do or care about are amazing.

00;12;02;11 - 00;12;06;09
Jodi Tonarelli
And those are just like the funny stories that are kind of like the icing on the cake along the way, too.

00;12;07;08 - 00;12;28;23
Rusty George
I want to ask you about that and let's- let's jump into that a little bit. You know, we read books like Four Disciplines of Execution and Management Books and they talk a lot about the difference between the- the the whirlwind and the wildly important goal or the what's important now goal and how everybody has you just have the day to day.

00;12;29;00 - 00;12;48;08
Rusty George
This has to happen for life to continue in a church. It's always working for Sunday. But then there's the big initiatives that come up that you got to really put some horsepower behind, put a team together, make it work. Otherwise that will never happen. So give our listeners a feel for as an executive pastor, what's a little bit of a whirlwind,

00;12;48;11 - 00;12;56;17
Rusty George
Just every week you're doing this and what's a few of your WIG initiatives? What wildly important goals that you've had to work on since you've been there?

00;12;57;13 - 00;13;20;18
Jodi Tonarelli
Oh, boy, what a good question. I think. Oh, the weekly grind of Sunday's always coming. For us, We do Thursday and Sunday services. So those- those days are are quickly coming one upon the other. That's always there. The idea that you're always going to have somebody you care about because you really want to be a church family who's in need or hurting.

00;13;20;29 - 00;13;39;00
Jodi Tonarelli
That's a hard, hard thing to come to grips with because those are people you care, especially with COVID. There are people I love dearly who have not come back and not come back because they're afraid of COVID, but because they've fallen away from their faith, because it's been so long. Yeah, that breaks my heart every day. I don't know how to let that go.

00;13;39;12 - 00;14;01;11
Jodi Tonarelli
And you have to somehow get to a place where you rationalize: it's okay to still long for and love them with the idea that it can't be all consuming because that negates all of these other new people that God has brought us in the meantime, who still need to be loved and cared for and shown. Jesus. And how do you manage all of those relational things all at once when eternity is in the balance?

00;14;01;11 - 00;14;23;19
Jodi Tonarelli
Right. So it's that- that stuff that feels so heavy with what our lead Pastor Mark likes to remind us all of is like, “Hey, you, you are not Jesus. So don't don't make it all about you and thinking that you need to do it”. And it's that reality of going, okay, let's just not take ourselves too seriously or it's okay to have fun while we're doing the serious work of everyday ministry too.

00;14;23;19 - 00;14;23;25
Rusty George
Yeah.

00;14;24;14 - 00;14;45;03
Rusty George
I, I think there's a balance there. Is that there because you're not, you're not paid to be a Christian. You know, that's not your job. But yet you are a Christian, so you care about those people. You reach out to those people, you love those people. But at the same time, there's a job to be done. So, you know, here you have this part time role on staff.

00;14;45;03 - 00;15;10;21
Rusty George
It turns into a little bit more than that. And suddenly, now you're an executive pastor. So for our listeners that think what does an executive pastor even do? Are they the ones in charge? You know, do they make all the big decisions? That is, manage the money? What was, you know, kind of different for you taking that role and define that role for us that maybe our listeners don't know about?

00;15;11;26 - 00;15;36;14
Jodi Tonarelli
Well, best I can tell, it is- it is whatever it needs to be to fit the church and the lead pastor. And it's funny because when Mark asked to be here to go through the processes, we were going to explore what the church needed. And I had been on the leadership team even before accepting this role. So we as a team have been talking about what do we need to move the mission forward?

00;15;36;14 - 00;16;05;17
Jodi Tonarelli
What- what do we think would be best served? I just- to yeah. Do more of what God is asking us and calling us to do. I had zero interest and it was because I had all these preconceived notions of what I thought the role was and diving nose deep into Excel spreadsheets and dealing with contracts and just, you know, especially as somebody who has a natural bent toward all things creative, it just didn't seem fun.

00;16;05;17 - 00;16;33;24
Jodi Tonarelli
And yeah, I want- I wanted to not be with contracts and numbers all day, but to be with people. And I want- I have such a heart for collaboration. And I don't think because you have the highest job title on the org chart, you have a monopoly on all good ideas. So I really struggled and I didn't want to consider, I just, I didn't want to consider it and then fought back and forth a little bit about saying no and just trying to decline.

00;16;34;05 - 00;16;58;29
Jodi Tonarelli
And Mark said, Well, you honor God by going through the process. So he dropped the God bomb on me, which pretty much means He wins. Right? Right. And so I did. And the surprising thing for me was just to see where God showed up all along the way, to show how the gifts that He had given me and if I really believe they are from Him and this whole process is from Him, then I got to start looking at how those two are connected.

00;16;59;12 - 00;17;19;06
Jodi Tonarelli
And usually when I had heard from God in the past, it had been just short little phrases, not- not audible like I'm hearing his voice, but just these promptings. And it's that same little phrase over and over again. When I left the news industry and got into ministry overall, it was, It's okay, the dream changes. I heard that over and over again.

00;17;19;15 - 00;17;21;28
Jodi Tonarelli
It's okay. It's okay. The dream changes. It's okay.

00;17;24;09 - 00;17;45;18
Jodi Tonarelli
So when this was all, I wasn't getting that. And I was waiting and waiting and I kept thinking, well, maybe- then maybe I'm being affirmed that it isn't for this. But one of the guys on our leadership team here, Forrest, talked to me about this other book he had read called Whisper by Mark Batterson. And it talks about all the ways to hear from God and even the timing of getting that book.

00;17;45;18 - 00;18;22;25
Jodi Tonarelli
One of the things that started as soon as I dove in sticking out to me was the idea of God speaking through circumstance, and it smacked me like just a semitruck hitting me in the face going, “Oh my gosh”, because throughout this whole process there were things happening and conflicts or situations at an organizational level that I was being thrust into, not choosing on my own that I had to respond to or lead through, that were foreshadowing of what could come or a culture shift that could happen, which is something I'm super passionate about.

00;18;23;03 - 00;18;44;03
Jodi Tonarelli
Examples of being able to care for our staff in ways that they weren't being cared for. And so all of the sudden it was like, okay, again, this example of God doing a work on me, revealing more himself to me and then going, “Well, if this is all happening through even considering the role, I have to be obedient”.

00;18;44;03 - 00;19;11;17
Jodi Tonarelli
And then really to get back to your specific question, it was the freedom of our lead pastor saying let's customize the role to fit the gifts and him having the confidence and the trust in me to know there's going to be some rough edges. I don't have a finance degree. I need the help of an amazing finance team to pull that off and to honor God with our finances as an organization.

00;19;11;29 - 00;19;37;21
Jodi Tonarelli
But- but that's what they're there for. And so. So can I cast vision for them? Can I share with them our priorities? Sure, I can do that. And they create the spreadsheet. Cool. That's even better for me. So it's and that's just one small example, but hopefully you understand the greater point of it. It was really going, “God is moving, I need to listen and then let's figure out what the nitty gritty looks like.

00;19;37;21 - 00;19;59;06
Jodi Tonarelli
But there's some freedom to be creative with- with even that. And what and what is nitty gritty today may not be what is the case a year or two years, three years from now, as we grow and as I can maybe hand some of those other things off the list to focus on even more of what I feel like that is specifically calling me too, but I don't think that's unique just to the XP role.

00;19;59;06 - 00;20;06;05
Jodi Tonarelli
I think that's holistically as you get into ministry and your church grows, you have that opportunity as well.

00;20;06;27 - 00;20;22;04
Rusty George
That's so good. Okay. So I'm going to rant on that for just a second, but I want to give you a question that's going to be out of the blue and let you process it while I chat to our audience. Oh, boy. About what you just said. And that is okay.

00;20;22;06 - 00;20;47;02
Rusty George
Somebody sitting out there listening to you thinking, Yeah, I'd like to work at a church or I'd like to be an executive pastor. I'm on staff right now, and I think that's what I need to do. Answer this here just a moment: Don't be an executive pastor if and then do be an executive pastor if. And so while you're thinking of that, what I found interesting about your answer was how Mark said, “We'll tailor the gift to meet your needs”.

00;20;47;24 - 00;21;07;29
Rusty George
And this is so good because a lot of us as lead guys think, “Oh, I'd love to have an XP, I'd love to have an XP because they would take this off my plate”, and that's because we saw it done somewhere else. But it may not be true for you. For instance, if you're a lead pastor that loves to strategize and be in the weeds, you may not need to have that taken off your plate.

00;21;07;29 - 00;21;27;17
Rusty George
You may need to have the creative taken off your plate and let them brainstorm and put together, you know, an R&D team and really see what's next. Or it could be that typically it's the flip flop, the lead guys, the visionary. This is where we're going. I have no idea how to get there. And the XP rallies have staff around and teams around.

00;21;27;24 - 00;21;53;01
Rusty George
How do we actually take those steps to get there? So figuring out who you are and then who you need as your Robin to your Batman to really help out kind of that relationship. So Jodi, with that filibuster, do take the job if- go for it.

Hey, let me interrupt for just a second. Would you help us plan a church, go to stadiachurchplanting.org today to find out more.

00;21;53;08 - 00;21;54;22
Rusty George
All right. Back to our episode.

00;21;55;15 - 00;22;13;15
Jodi Tonarelli
Do take the job if you love your church's mission and vision as much as your lead pastor or in your mind's eye, you have given as much of your heart to it as you know how to give, right? You have to be. You have to love it. Nobody's going to love it as much as the lead pastor. I think.

00;22;13;15 - 00;22;28;01
Jodi Tonarelli
But you've got to get as close as you humanly possibly could. Do take it if you feel like even on your bad days or on his bad days, you can still be honest with your lead pastor.

00;22;28;10 - 00;22;28;28
Rusty George
That's good.

00;22;29;12 - 00;22;55;12
Jodi Tonarelli
Do take it if you feel like you can continuously work to earn the trust of your lead pastor and the staff team that you serve and do take it if you have a supportive spouse, that's good. Don't take it if you do not have a supportive spouse because it's sometimes all consuming. And like I said, my husband is my hero.

00;22;55;21 - 00;23;31;16
Jodi Tonarelli
He's the hardest working man I know. He's also the most understanding. And he also holds me accountable when I'm giving too much of myself and my family needs me. So I appreciate his wisdom. Don't take it if you have any trouble submitting and laying down your preferences over your church or your staff teams, there's there's so much sacrifice involved in this role that I didn't I, I was going to say I didn't see coming, but I guess conceptual you kind of know what until you have to live it out and feel what it feels like.

00;23;32;14 - 00;23;53;11
Jodi Tonarelli
I, I, I don't have real weight and I'm a wordsmith and I don't have a way of accurately describing what that feels like. And don't take it without a trusted circle around you, because there will be, at least there was for me, a grieving process to go through, as you do, because there's a lot that you have to give up as you assimilate in.

00;23;54;06 - 00;24;13;29
Jodi Tonarelli
And there continues to be moments of loneliness that are lonely in new ways. And I'm just trying to be transparent, try to serve somebody who's trying to vet this out. But there are moments of loneliness that I think no one will understand until they're in the middle of it. And you I don't know that you can prepare for that until it happens.

00;24;14;12 - 00;24;52;05
Jodi Tonarelli
And it gives me a healthier and a greater respect for lead pastors. But I still understand that the burden that an ExP carries is still not that of an LP. Hmm. So I just there needs to be that environment for healthy transparency between you and the lead pastor and whatever it takes to get there, where if they're not going to hear it from anybody else, you've got to be the one to step to the plate and say, I love you enough to protect you, until you say and behind your back I love you enough to when I'm exhausted and crabby, still see something great that you did and encourage you because you don't hear it

00;24;52;05 - 00;25;12;25
Jodi Tonarelli
from anybody else and you're trying to lead humbly and you're not going to ask for it. So I'm going to fill you up. I'm going to fill your cup. Even when I feel like I'm empty. And I want somebody who's going to advocate for a lead pastor's family because that so rarely, rarely happens in ministry.

00;25;13;23 - 00;25;38;02
Jodi Tonarelli
And so I just and maybe maybe I have a unique heart because my husband and I were friends with Mark and Donna before, you know, before coming on staff we attended for years before I came on staff and I see some of not all of but some of what those impacts are and have such a heart for the sacrifices that get made that no one sees.

00;25;38;15 - 00;25;59;17
Jodi Tonarelli
And that goes for our at least here at the Ridge, our entire staff, the spouses and what they give up, the kids and what they give up. I mean, you're working at a church on Christmas or Easter. Those are holidays that those kids, you know, they want to be opening their Christmas gifts, but you're still at services or they want to hunt for their Easter basket in the morning.

00;25;59;17 - 00;26;01;02
Jodi Tonarelli
But you're already gone.

00;26;01;02 - 00;26;01;12
Rusty George
Mm.

00;26;02;27 - 00;26;30;22
Jodi Tonarelli
I don't- and you have to prepare those kids for you being gone and that seems like a little and a trivial thing, but it's not, it's not if they're your kids. So, I just- the heart for this sacrificial nature of ministry in general, but in particular the loneliness of the role is something that I think you need to be aware of so that when it does happen, you can respond in a healthy way.

00;26;30;22 - 00;26;54;01
Rusty George
That's really good. That's worth the price of the download right there. Really great stuff. So I want to drill down on this XP thing a little bit more and specifically a little bit of the gender role here because you're female. And a not well we're only doing this on audio, so a lot of experts are male.

00;26;54;05 - 00;27;10;14
Rusty George
Why do you think there seems to be so few female ExP’s and advocate for female ExP’s? Why is that such a great idea for lead pastors to consider?

00;27;10;14 - 00;27;35;26
Jodi Tonarelli
Oh boy. Okay. There's like 50 things I could say to answer this. And I say, before I answer it, I want to say one thing. If you'll indulge me and it's I realize there are going to be people listening to this that do not think I should be serving in the role that I serve in. And they have grounded that belief, I hope, in a fair evaluation of the Scriptures and wrestling through it with God.

00;27;36;18 - 00;28;01;09
Jodi Tonarelli
And to you, I say I respect your opinion. I do. I realize that I as an individual and I as a woman, I'm not for everybody. And that's okay. I had to do the wrestling too and I did it a couple of years before taking this role when I was really coming into leadership. And again, my lead pastor is awesome and great and wanted to save me from the struggle and say, “You're fine, you're fine.

00;28;01;09 - 00;28;22;24
Jodi Tonarelli
I'm telling you, you're fine”. That's awesome. But unless I miss something, I'm the one that's got to give an account someday. So I think it's really important to be able to know and not have any doubts that serving at whatever level you are serving at male or female, that you are okay with that and that you believe God.

00;28;23;03 - 00;28;41;15
Jodi Tonarelli
For me, it was do I really believe God has given me these gifts? Yes. Okay, then am I not accountable to him first and everything else second with how I use them and steward them? Yes. Okay. And then everything could go from- but it took 6 to 9 months of wrestling to get there. I think the answer is easy for you.

00;28;41;15 - 00;29;07;05
Jodi Tonarelli
You probably haven't done the work yet. So having said that, you know, when it comes to this question of should females be I don't know. I don't know. I know how God wired me. I don't think it's fair. Just as do I think every male XP is a good XP candidate. No, they need to wrestle too.

00;29;07;18 - 00;29;35;25
Jodi Tonarelli
I think blanket statements of any kind are where we get into trouble? Do I think that? See, now you're going to get full candor, and I don't know how to give you an answer without doing it. I've worked in male dominated career fields my entire life. So I. I would say a fair evaluation of my skill set and my style and my personality is more masculine, even behind the scenes, than feminine.

00;29;35;25 - 00;30;01;12
Jodi Tonarelli
And so what I have had to admit since becoming a leader is that at first I accidentally shut the door behind me and that hurt my heart once I realized it, because as much as I don't want a seat at the table because I'm a woman, I don't think anybody should just because of your gender. I also don't want to shut the door knowing that I at least I'm the first one in the room.

00;30;02;03 - 00;30;23;18
Jodi Tonarelli
And there's a responsibility that comes with that. So how do you wrestle with that? I've done some learning, realizing that I'm the odd duck and not because I'm a woman. So that was the unexpected answer. I'm the odd duck because I'm a woman who doesn't work like a woman. Now, I also believe that God used that to get me in the door first.

00;30;23;18 - 00;30;47;04
Jodi Tonarelli
But what I've come to learn, which may be a more direct answer to your question, is that statistically the females around you, as a lead pastor are going to have less reps in the corporate world than the males to try out being the leader. So for me, I didn't. I had zero. I hadn't led anything until I started leading here as a volunteer.

00;30;47;25 - 00;31;16;28
Jodi Tonarelli
So you might need to look, you know, so often we look at the job title to go, well, they're leading at work. They can lead at church, maybe, but maybe not for women. For women, more often than not, they're not going to come from that same path. Traditionally, males will bring other males along and assimilate into the business side of things, of leadership and and the finances and how to make decisions or how to sign the contract or how to vet a vendor.

00;31;17;06 - 00;31;39;23
Jodi Tonarelli
Women are not as typically brought along for conversations that way. This is all research I've done right. This is not me inherently knowing. It's me going to seek this out, knowing that I have some work to do, to be accountable, to to hoping that I'm not the last female leader here. We have a great suite of female directors at the Ridge and it's like, who's who's going to be the next female XP?

00;31;39;23 - 00;32;08;06
Jodi Tonarelli
I don't know. But do I think God would stop at me? Why? I don't think I'm that special, you know. But do I want a seat at the table because I'm a woman? No. Do I want to only lead women? No, I don't. And I think that's the other mistake. Sometimes male leaders in ministry assume female leaders only want to read lead children's areas or women's ministries.

00;32;08;22 - 00;32;27;28
Jodi Tonarelli
And those would probably be last on my list. So, you know, I would say treat us as individuals. That's that's a good piece of advice. Yeah. I don't want to lead because I'm a woman or a woman. I want to lead because God called me to be a leader. So I want to sit at the table with leaders, period.

00;32;28;28 - 00;32;40;10
Rusty George
Okay. That kind of naturally segues into my next question, which is, and you've kind of already answered this, but anything more to add on how male pastors can better empower women? Hmm.

00;32;42;17 - 00;32;55;29
Jodi Tonarelli
Well, so… there are some realities, especially for ones that are married with families that you can't ignore. When a kid is sick, they nine times out of ten are going to want mom instead of dad.

00;32;56;11 - 00;32;56;20
Rusty George
Hmm.

00;32;57;22 - 00;33;21;24
Jodi Tonarelli
There are still, at least in my household, a lot of gender stereotypes for who does the cooking or the laundry. And my husband's an awesome cleaner, so I should say that out loud. Otherwise he will stop cleaning. And I don't want that to happen. So, you know, whatever the home life looks like for me as a female leader, the flexibility I feel in my work environment that I have is key.

00;33;22;13 - 00;33;49;03
Jodi Tonarelli
There are days where my kids get off the school bus and I need to be home. So I leave at 330 and then go get them off the bus and I'm logged in for another couple hours in the evening. Those kinds of things show that you value that any leader, you know, there might be guys who do this too, but it shows that you value their leadership and their leadership voice more than them sitting at their desk for 2 hours that you tell them to be there.

00;33;49;03 - 00;34;22;08
Jodi Tonarelli
But they I think it's acknowledging they do have some different family burdens because they are still the mom at home and in a lot of churches there are still predominantly male pastoral staffs, predominantly male leadership teams, and when you presume you can schedule meetings at certain times, who are you leaving out of that conversation? And would it be worth scheduling the meeting at a different time when you could open the door to different leaders who have different situations at home?

00;34;23;15 - 00;34;53;16
Jodi Tonarelli
I also think that if you have a female leader, you know, my husband has and is a leader in a job that he loves. So I don't have a stay at home spouse who can take care of the kids or who can handle things. Well, while I go to these other five board meetings and whatever else, coffees and lunches and dinners.

00;34;53;25 - 00;35;11;24
Jodi Tonarelli
So there are some logistics with my schedule that might be different than some male leaders who have more traditional home lives with a stay at home spouse. And I think accommodating that is something not just our lead pastor, but our entire staff and our board and everybody has been supportive. And I'm not the only one that has that.

00;35;12;06 - 00;35;33;07
Jodi Tonarelli
I just think that will become even more and more common as what has been traditional gender roles with the boomers started to fade just a little bit with Gen X and I'm on the younger end of Gen X, it is faded even more statistically with millennials, and I'm sure it will be nearly, nearly gone with Gen Z by the time they start to come into leadership.

00;35;33;07 - 00;35;46;07
Jodi Tonarelli
So I think it's only the beginning of a trend that's going to become more and more prevalent. But for right now, the most immediate impacts are probably going to be on female leaders. Wow. That's my anecdote. Maybe not statistically true. Just my experience.

00;35;46;10 - 00;36;05;19
Rusty George
That's really good. Okay, so you've given us some great stuff today and certainly some stuff that our listeners are going to want to share with other people, especially those who might be thinking about joining a church staff or empowering women in the workforce. But I want to wrap up with this, because this tends to be the way churches operate at times.

00;36;05;19 - 00;36;36;11
Rusty George
They have a person on their team doing one job well, and so let's give them a second job and surely they can do both of them at equal level. And I think for an XP, they typically are, you know, they're doing one role like adult ministry or communications. And then the pastor comes to them and says, hey, could you be the XP as well and oversee this team of peers that you once were on, but you still need to handle the communications department or adult ministry department.

00;36;37;13 - 00;36;52;19
Rusty George
Is that a good idea? Sometimes it's a necessity because you don't have the bandwidth to be able to hire another person. But do we really get to full time jobs or we just get two part time jobs done poorly?

00;36;52;19 - 00;36;58;06
Jodi Tonarelli
I'm doing that right now. So I am a- I'm going to give you the raw, real deal. You get-

00;36;58;09 - 00;36;58;21
Rusty George
Okay.

00;36;58;22 - 00;37;06;27
Jodi Tonarelli
You get my full attention on the high level stuff and lesser on the not as important stuff.

00;37;07;10 - 00;37;07;21
Rusty George
Okay.

00;37;08;04 - 00;37;28;14
Jodi Tonarelli
And you also need to be if you're the one working that role in that way, I think it's on you to give away pieces of your ministry to volunteers or other leaders on staff, even, or people who aren't leaders yet, but might be as a way to test it. Right. Test for it that you're uncomfortable giving away because you love them.

00;37;28;14 - 00;37;52;13
Jodi Tonarelli
This is where, again, your preference and what you'd like to be doing every day sometimes has to die to what the organization or the staff team needs or the mission needs. And that's hard, right? Because those things give you life sometimes. But you still- I think the agreement that should happen between you and your direct report, whether it's the lead pastor or somebody else will be, “How long do you see this need being?

00;37;52;22 - 00;38;10;21
Jodi Tonarelli
a need”, yeah. When am I going to only wear one had again and when- and when you're in seasons where there is a lot required for both of those, I think you need to be really clear with the direct report, hey, this is beyond my capacity. What do you see that I don't see that I am not prioritizing?

00;38;10;21 - 00;38;29;23
Jodi Tonarelli
Or how would you suggest I prioritize these two things together? Because then you'll surface which one they see the most value in and maybe they have a piece of this that impacts the whole church that you haven't seen yet. Or maybe they have a rep that you haven't, that you can get some wisdom and some guidance that alleviates the stress from you and then you don't feel the pressure.

00;38;29;24 - 00;38;44;15
Jodi Tonarelli
Right. I think we're afraid to ask and admit we don't know. But losing that fear of looking silly or foolish or whatever that is that we have can really be a gift. But you have to be humble enough to ask that.

00;38;44;16 - 00;39;04;11
Rusty George
So good. Because I think that if you were to ask everybody on your team what they think their most important jobs are, they do it might be different for the person that's they're their superior or supervisor. So if you're going to do two jobs, let's nail down the five things that are my priorities at each job. And then you pick five total you want me to do.

00;39;04;28 - 00;39;20;15
Jodi Tonarelli
And it's seasonal, right? There are seasonal, right? There are seasons two of ministry either because Christmas is coming or a different big holiday, maybe something local for you or because of the growth of your church. We're going to launch a new campus. Well, you better believe that shifts priorities for everybody. Yeah, some more than others.

00;39;21;11 - 00;39;47;23
Rusty George
That's so good. All right, well, this has been really helpful. We just scratched the surface. I Love to talk more about marketing and communications and and how you ever got Mark White to put gel in his hair that would actually when I watch him teach online, I think oh, he's had help. His clothes are ironed and they match and he has product in his hair.

00;39;47;23 - 00;39;49;17
Rusty George
So well done. Good job.

00;39;49;25 - 00;39;51;20
Jodi Tonarelli
He's taken lessons from you. I don't.

00;39;52;01 - 00;39;52;26
Rusty George
Know. Yes, well.

00;39;53;11 - 00;39;54;27
Jodi Tonarelli
My style lesson. Yeah.

00;39;54;29 - 00;40;12;14
Rusty George
It takes a village. Definitely. Well, Jodi, on behalf of all lead pastors, I can just tell you the executive pastor is the most crucial role. Thank you for what you do for the greater church. Thank you for what you do for the ridge. Thank you for what you do for my friend. And thank you for sharing with our audience today.

00;40;12;21 - 00;40;14;00
Jodi Tonarelli
It's an honor. Thanks for asking.

00;40;15;04 - 00;40;30;18
Rusty George
Well, Jodi is such an incredible leader, and I think you're really going to find use for that information in your daily life. Make sure you share that with somebody else who might be blessed by that. And would you leave us a review? You can go to wherever you get your podcast, leave us a review. We're collecting all those reviews.

00;40;30;18 - 00;40;52;23
Rusty George
We're going to draw a name at the end of the summer and give out a prize. Hey, next week we're going to be back with one of the heroes in church leadership and in leadership in general. He writes a leadership blog that is one of the most popular in the country, in all particular sectors. His name is Dan Reiland, and he has an incredible influence and has worked for John Maxwell for 20 years.

00;40;53;00 - 00;41;05;21
Rusty George
Then as a vice president of leadership, enjoy and has some done some incredible things. You're going to love hearing from him. So, yeah, make sure you're back with us next week. And as always, until then, keep it simple.

00;41;05;21 - 00;41;28;18
Narrator
Take a moment and subscribe to the podcast so you'll get it delivered every week and subscribe to the Rusty George YouTube Channel. For more devotionals, messages and fun videos. Thank you for listening to Leading Simple.