The Rusty George Podcast

Rusty George: No matter what organization you lead, finances are paramount for your success. And church finances aren't any different. Poorly managed church finances can hurt a pastor's ability to lead church members and reach the local community. After all, very little will wreck the movement of God more than weak financial policies and workflows. Thankfully, it's much easier to make changes now before your church is in the headlines than to try to establish those relationships after they've been torpedoed by, uh, a costly financial misstep. And that's where our friends at Belay can help. Belay, a modern, uh, church staffing organization with fractional US. Based accounting and virtual assistant services, has helped busy church leaders do just that for more than a decade. To help you figure out where to start, ballet is offering its resource for costly financial mistakes for churches to our listeners for free. To help you identify the four biggest things we can see wrecked churches when it comes to their finances and what you can do to avoid them, just text Rusty that's Rusty to 55123 to get back to growing your church with, uh, Ballet.
Intro/Outro: Welcome to Leading Simple with Rusty George. Our goal is to make following Jesus and leading others a bit more simple. Here's your host, Rusty George.
Rusty George: Well, welcome to episode 241. I'm so glad to have you with us, uh, on Leading Simple. Hope you're having a great February. Hope you, uh, have remembered Valentine's Day. Hope you're, uh, just really enjoying, uh, this last of the winter months for, uh, those of us that live in California. We have gotten rid of winter, uh, several weeks ago when it stopped raining. Uh, today, uh, we have been sponsored by Belais Solutions again, and we have been for this entire month and this entire year so far. And we're so grateful to them. They do such great work for so many churches, so many leaders, so many businesses at helping you get virtual assistance, helping you get, uh, financial, uh, help and resources and back end services for your office. Check out BELAY Solutions for more, uh, today.
Gary Mcintosh: Wow.
Rusty George: We get to have a conversation with a guy that wrote a great resource in helping pastors who are ministering by themselves. I remember being a pastor early on, working at a small, tiny little church in Arkansas. And it was a lonely job, uh, just me, uh, driving to houses, meeting with m people, having lunches, preaching messages. Uh, it's hard work. And there are people that I know that are dear friends that have planted churches. And there were a lot of well wishers in the beginning, and now they feel like it's just them. What do you do when you are a solo pastor? Well, Gary Macintosh has written a great resource to help out with that. And you might be thinking, well, I'm not a pastor. I'm not necessarily in professional ministry. But you might lead in some capacity where you feel like you're the only one, I think this will be beneficial for you as well. So, as always, if you would leave a review for the podcast or share this with somebody, that would be hugely encouraging and supportive of the show, I really appreciate that. And thanks again to Belay for supporting but now here's my conversation with Gary Macintosh.
Rusty George: Well, Gary Macintosh, thank you so much for joining us. I told our listeners a little bit about you in your bio, but I would love to know specifically, you've written 27 books. I want to know why you wrote this book, The Solo Pastor. This is a great title and a great concept that needs to be dealt with. What brought this to mind for you?
Gary Mcintosh: Well, thanks, Rusty, uh, for having me on. I really appreciate it. This book has been on my heart and mind for years. Um, I myself, uh, right after seminary pastored, uh, uh, two different churches, and I was a solo pastor at both of them, at least in the beginning. Second church grew a little bit, and I was able to get a small staff. But, uh, uh, at the beginning of both of the churches, I was a solo pastor. And I was in shock, to tell you the truth, because, uh, I had come from medium sized churches that always had at least a small staff. And I came to these churches, uh, where I was the only pastor pretty, uh, much responsible for doing everything and beyond what, uh, pastors do. And honestly, I had a Bible college education, I had a seminary education, and it had not prepared me to be a solo pastor in a church. And so my heart has always been for pastors in these, uh, churches where they're serving pretty much by themselves. And I just finally, uh, decided it was time to write the book and share some of the things I've learned over the years, not just in my own ministry, but also from many other pastors that I've worked with.
Rusty George: Yeah, it is interesting. We think about the rise of the megachurch over the last 40 years, and we think about large sized churches, and we wouldn't you know, we often forget that 80% of the churches in America are less than 200 people. So you get down to that level, and there's not a lot of funds for staff, and there are a lot of solo pastors out there, especially church plants, that are just getting going. There are some well meaning volunteers. But as the pastor, you sometimes feel like you're all alone. Do you feel like some of the challenges you had in the early days of being a solo pastor? Are some of the same issues faced today by solo pastures? Or there are some that are a little bit different.
Gary Mcintosh: Some of them are the same. Um, for instance, you mentioned the word lonely. Um, that really came up as the number one reason that, um, uh, people in small churches struggle. Uh, the pastors, um, they really don't have other people around them who really understand what it's like to have pressure on them. 24/7, uh, you can have deacons, you can have elders, and they can share the load, there's no doubt about that. But at the same time, they don't seem to take the, uh, concerns of the ministry home with them at night. And, uh, the pastor does. Um, so the closest thing to being a solo pastor is probably, um, a small business owner, uh, who, um, owns their own business and they go home at night and they take all the concerns and worries about the small business home. And that's what happens a lot with pastors. And they just, uh, have told me over the years they really don't have anybody to talk to who can resonate with them, understand, uh, the dynamics of, um, what they're facing and everything. So, um, loneliness is a major issue.
Rusty George: It's interesting you say that, uh, about what we take home with us. Um, I remember being in Bible college and I loved to write sermons and I would preach at this small little church on the weekends. And I remember thinking, I cannot wait until I'm out of school so I can spend so much more time writing a message. And then you get out of school and you're full time in ministry and you realize I still have very little time to write a message because there's so much work with people, uh, there's crises to deal with. And that idea of bringing it home, boy, that really is a huge part of it for our listeners. Would you explain a little bit of what's going on in the mindset of a pastor when they get home at night? The unfinished business, the unresolved conflicts, the things that they're having to wrestle with, that if you just attend on a Sunday, you're not thinking about uh, or even if you're even an Elder or deacon, you're probably not thinking about certainly.
Gary Mcintosh: Pastors uh will have the normal concerns, like, uh, maybe some of the financial issues the church is going through. Uh, the pastor might mention that to some people, say, on Sunday morning, uh, maybe in the hallway of the church, talk to them. But, uh, the people, they listen and they seem to care. But when they go home, they kind of forget about it. But the pastor goes home thinking, well, we need to, uh, pay the rent or, uh, pay our utility bill or whatever it is. And they carry that concern. Where am I going to get the money? Uh, they also carry the concern of many different people. Many times pastors have, uh, others who come to them and share their pains, their hurts, uh, maybe struggles they're having in their marriage or with a child. Um, and other people in the congregation don't even know about that. They don't know that, uh, the pastor is carrying a lot of burdens of some of the other people from the church. Um, but they are. And that doesn't go away just because you get in your car and drive five minutes and get out and walk into your house. Uh, uh, I remember in one of my churches, I live literally, uh, three blocks away from church. And so I would leave, uh, the church by the time I get home, I'm not ready to be home. I'm not ready to be a husband. I'm not ready to be a father because I hadn't had enough time to, uh, uh, uh, uh, deconstruct, I guess, the role of pastor to shift into the role of husband or father. Uh, um, I found over the years that one of the things that was helpful to me was when I lived further away from the church. Because when I would leave the church, I would have them maybe 1520 minutes, or maybe half an hour, uh, to kind of just, uh, go through mentally, spiritually, in my mind, and kind of release the stuff at church so I was ready to be home with the family. Uh, but pastors carry a lot of concerns in their hearts and minds, and, uh, the congregation doesn't even realize it.
Rusty George: No, they don't. Uh, I had, uh, a doctor say to me one time, he was talking about how he said, I assume that when you go out, everybody recognizes you and says hi. And I said, well, that happens sometimes. And he said, I have the same thing, and they expect me to know their name. And he said, What I have to remind them is you only have one doctor. But I have 1000 patients, and it's hard to remember all those names. I thought that's a really good way to say it, because if you stand up on stage and you talk for 30 minutes a week, people feel like they really know you and they feel really close to you, which is a great thing. Um, but I don't always know exactly what's going on with them. And then you feel that weight of, oh, my gosh, I forgot your name, I'm so sorry. And, um, just that added burden and then that desire to try to know everybody and try to take care of everyone. It is a lot of weight, which does if you're a solo pastor, there really is that feeling of loneliness and isolation, but there's also a feeling of self doubt. Talk to us a little bit about what a solo pastor feels, and a lot of any pastor, for that matter, feels about self doubt. Where's that coming from?
Gary Mcintosh: You asked earlier, uh, are the things that pastors face today similar to what I faced years ago? And, uh, I said they are to some extent. But one of the things that I think is more difficult is this whole area of self doubt. Because with the Internet, with the rise of the mega church people, uh, in our churches. They go home, uh, they listen to podcasts, they watch other church services online. And so they're exposed to some of the top speakers in America, uh, or even the world sometimes. They're exposed to some of the, um, most extravagant, well designed and performed worship services. And, uh, they kind of compare, uh, their pastor and their church to that. Um, we can tell them not to compare, but they do anyway. I mean, it's just a natural aspect of life that, uh, when you're looking at different, uh, worship services, you're going to compare them. And so there is a lot more pressure on the pastors today. And a lot of pastors who are solo pastors, they look around, they see these other pastors who are, uh, online and, uh, on TV, and they compare themselves to them. And, um, they kind of wonder, are they adequate for the job? Are they adequate for the calling that God has placed on their life? And so it's, uh, a lot more pressure than I felt years ago.
Rusty George: Yeah, it is interesting. Uh, the rise of social media, the rise of the Internet, um, has certainly been beneficial to pastors because they're able to get their message out there a little bit better. They're able to actually get resources from other churches that will help them out, but their parishioners are able to access those things as well, uh, which, uh, does breed a lot of that compare and contrast. Uh, I've had many people, um, I say many. It's probably only a few, but you know how criticisms are. There are many. Uh, I've had him stop me in the lobby and ask me if I saw Joel Osteen that morning, because he, um, had a great message. And I think, well, no, because I was preaching a message, which obviously didn't compare with Joel, but thank you. Uh, it can get, uh, a little bit overwhelming. So much of our ministry is investing in people, and there's just no pain. Like, when you invest in somebody, you feel close to them, and then they leave. And sometimes they leave for good reasons. They moved or whatever. But sometimes it's, uh, I found a better game down the street, or a new, hipper, younger church moved in, or, I like the programs. This church offers more than yours, and they bail on you. And it's really painful, and certainly to a solo pastor, because there's really nobody to lament that with. There's nobody to kind of feel like, well, at least they're with me. What do you say to the little pastors in that situation? How do you encourage them?
Gary Mcintosh: What you're referring to there is the sense of loss. And, um, pastors, I think pastoral ministry is for all pastors is a continuing battle with a sense of loss, because we may do multiple funerals, for instance, and, uh, the people we do them for, they only maybe had one person pass away. But we do maybe three, four or five funerals, sometimes in a month. And so we've experienced a loss of three or four or five people. Um, and we have to grieve not just one person, but multiple people. Um, the same happens in a church. Someone, uh, leaves, and, um, we have to grieve that loss. But a lot of times, what pastors do is they don't give themselves a freedom to grieve, uh, that loss, or maybe they don't have time, uh, to grieve that loss. So what I tell pastors is, you, uh, can't stop people from leaving. Uh, you can't control people, at least not in modern day USA. Um, uh, people have much freedom to go where they want to go. Um, so you do the best you can. You, uh, provide the best resources and the best ministry that you're able to at this point in your life and the life of the church. Uh, and, uh, when people leave, do your best to bless them, uh, in a positive way. Uh, you might say to them, I hate to see you go, but if this is better for your family, then God bless you. Uh, but behind that, then you've got to give yourself some space to grieve. And the only way to grieve, really, is to talk to other people about it. And so this means having people you can talk to other than your spouse, because, um, many times we can talk to our spouse, but, uh, our spouse can only handle so much also. And so we need to cultivate some friendships, some relationships outside the church, uh, with other pastors would be good, um, if we can't find them. Sometimes maybe we need to invest in a coach where we, um, maybe pay someone to be with us, uh, an hour a month or something, just to talk, um, because we need to express the pain and the hurt and the loss. And as we are able to express it, it helps us then, uh, to grieve that particular loss. Um, I think we also have to constantly remind ourselves that this is God's church and that God grows his church. Uh, we don't grow the church, uh, but we have a part in it, and we have a part in its growth. And again, we do the best we can, and we seek to notch up our own ministry and the ministry of our church every year, uh, make it a little bit better, a little bit more, uh, able to, uh, meet the needs of people. Um, but I, um, think we also have to realize that we, uh, can only do what we can do. And God has placed us here this time in this place. And it's God's church, so we have to rest in that. I remember years ago, there was a pastor that always talked about the, uh, faith rest life. And I think that's where a lot of pastors have to be. We have to have faith that this is God's church. He's called us to this place for this time and, uh, rest in that. And if we can do that spiritually and if we can have someone else that we can express our hurt and pain and grief to, I think that will go a long way to helping.
Rusty George: That's a really good set of words there. I can think through some of the dark valleys of my, uh, ministry and it was the more I talked about it, the healthier I got. And as you said, um, my wife doesn't need to hear all of that because she's, uh, got to attend to hear as well. I get over things quicker than she does much, uh, like, I would, uh, not get over things as quick, uh, as she would if somebody hurt her feelings. So I think that's just natural. Now, there's one type of pain that you feel when people leave. There's another type of pain you feel when the wrong people stay. Uh, here's what I mean by that. You refer to a church bully, um, maybe somebody that, uh, makes your life miserable. Um, what type of person is that and how do we neutralize them?
Gary Mcintosh: Bullies exist everywhere. Of course, we've been hearing a lot about, uh, the whole issue of bullies, uh, in schools and encouraging parents to work with their children and the administration to eliminate bullies. Uh, bullies exist in larger churches too, but, uh, typically in a larger church they don't have as much influence or as much power. But there's a tendency in the smaller solo pastor church for really strong laypersons, uh, uh, to gain a foothold of control. And, um, they can express that control in a number of different ways. Sometimes, uh, um, uh, a bully will seek, uh, to influence the pastor and people, maybe because of their level of financial giving. If people know someone gives, uh, quite a bit of money, they, uh, can threaten to withhold that money. That would be, uh, a type of bullying. Um, another type would be, uh, a person who demands control. Uh, uh, I cite one story in the book about young, uh, pastor who became a solo pastor. Uh, and an older, more powerful man in the church met him for lunch and said, uh, the pastor always ran, uh, his sermon topics by me before he preached them. And I want you to do the same. Here's a highly controlling person who wants to approve the pastor's sermons, uh, before the pastor preaches them. Uh, um, um, other bullies, uh, control things by screaming, uh, by yelling, by getting upset and locking out the door and slamming the door. One, um, of the pastors I talked to told me a story about that. How they were in a, ah, church business meeting and this man who had all the power stood up and yelled at the pastor and walked past the pastor to the front door and walked out of the room, or the front door of the room and slammed the door. These are just actions of bullies. Um, uh, sometimes it can appear more spiritual. Uh, sometimes a person, uh, can control things by spiritualizing everything. And they'll say something, a meeting like, well, pastor, I've been praying about it and the Lord just isn't telling me it's the right thing to do. If they're highly, uh, respected and have been in the church for years before you probably as a pastor, a lot of people will be controlled by that. Uh, so there's different ways that, um, people will end up gaining control. Uh, and um, sometimes I want to make this clear, sometimes these people are not evil or bad people. Sometimes in, um, the solo pastor church, if it wasn't for say, a strong family, one strong family in the church, that church might have closed this doors years ago. And maybe that one strong family, uh, because of their commitment to Christ in the church, they're the reason the church survived, mhm, and now the chance to thrive, maybe under your leadership, but they control everything. One of their members is on the finance committee, one of their members is on the deacons. One of their members is an elder. One of their members is ahead of the women's group. And so their tentacles, so to speak, are out there in every ministry and they don't even realize the extent of control, uh, that they have. But uh, you, the pastor, see it. And so they're controlling, but not in a mean way. Um, but then there are those bullies who are mean too. But these are realities in the solo pastor church. They're there.
Rusty George: So you mentioned some of, um, these bullies, sometimes they end up on the elder board and somebody gets on the elder board because A they give a lot of money or b because they run a large company. And so we assume, well, they're going to have great leadership. They're not always the most spiritual person. Sometimes a person gets on the board because they're overly spiritual, but they can't lead themselves out of a paper sack. So you find that they're the ones that are always playing the spirituality card but don't really have any kind of proverb, uh, sense. Uh, I guess here's my question. I have seen solo pastors that interact with those type of personalities, not even just solo pastors. And so they swing the opposite direction. They either go hardcore with their own version of control or hardcore with their own version of spirituality. Uh, how do you live in the balance there? Because leadership is so nuanced. It's not just a, uh, science, it's an art. There's moments to demonstrate some visionary leadership and other times to be more pastoral. How did you walk through that? How do you coach pastors to walk through that, knowing which tool to use.
Rusty George: Out of the toolbox I think really.
Gary Mcintosh: You have to do both. And mhm, uh, so you lead from the stage, you lead from the pulpit, uh, through your preaching and exegesis of the Word of God. But you don't neglect to also lead through breakfasts and lunches and coffee times with the leaders of the church. M, one of the dangers for the soul Pastor, is if you have a bully in the church or a highly controlling person, uh, sometimes we tend to uh, drift away from that particular person or that particular family. Uh, um, sometimes it's because it's painful to be around them. Um, and so if we have new people coming into the church, we'll drift towards the new people because the new people are exciting, they're fresh. And um, it's normal that when a new person comes into a church and they come under your leadership, they then respect you, they trust you, they follow you in your vision and your sense of where the church ought to go. Uh, but people who have been there prior to you, which is typical of the church uh, bully type of person, they um, don't always want to follow you. And so what we do is we drift away from the controlling person and we drift towards the people who will affirm us. Now, that's a danger. And what we have to do is make sure that we embrace um, the debulli more. Um, uh, someone years ago said, keep uh, your friends close and your enemies closer. I can't remember that'd.
Rusty George: Be the godfather.
Gary Mcintosh: You have a person who is a highly controlling person. Uh, I think what you have to do is you have to meet with that person on a regular basis, have coffee with them, um, ask them a lot of questions that will guide them towards the direction you want to see the church go. Uh, so uh, for instance, in one of the stories I tell in the book, um, a uh, solo pastor came with a new pastor at a church and one of his deacons came up to him and said well pastor, when are you going to mow the lawn? Um, this deacon was uh, a powerful person in the church and he uh, was basically saying that a pastor, it's your job to mow the church lawn. Well, how do you deal with that? Well what the pastor did was ask him a question and he asked him this question and by the way, for your listeners, this is a great question to put in um, your uh, toolbox he asked him, is that what you called me to do? Um, and according to the person I heard the story from, that deacon was stunned. He had never in the history of his time in church been asked, is that what you called the pastor to do? Mold alone? Well that led to conversation. Um, what is the pastor's role? What is the pastor's job? Now, frankly, in a lot of older churches, uh, who have solo pastors. They've either forgotten what the biblical purpose of the pastor is or they just never thought about it. And so I think one of the ways you work with, uh, a, uh, bully, uh, at least to attempt to work with them is you meet with them, you have coffee with them, you have conversation with them, you ask them questions. You ask them, uh, uh, Bob, uh, where do you see our church being in the next five years? I'd really like to know. And then, ah, maybe they've never thought about that. Or, uh, well, Bob, if we don't grow a little bit, how are we going to stay, uh, financially solvent? Have you thought about that and what, what you're thinking? And um, well, Bob, what do you really see my job being as the pastor? What do you see me doing? And let Bob express that. And then when they're done, you say, well, Bob, that's interesting. Would you mind if I take a few minutes to share with you what I think my job is? And so you enter into these conversations. Now, they're not going to change overnight, but I think if we don't run from them, if we talk to them and we can guide them slowly in, uh, a new direction, uh, now, if we find that the bully is just too stubborn and, uh, is not willing to listen, uh, then I think we just have to be firm and confident and say, well, Bob, uh, I know you think it's a pastor's job to mow the lawn, but I just don't see it that way. And I think I'm not going to do it. Bob. So you need to find another way to get the lawn mowed. You have to stay in firm. But I think, um, we have to do that in love and grace, but, uh, we have to be confident in what our calling is and say, I'm not going to do that. So, uh, the story I mentioned about the older man asking the pastor to clear his sermon titles, the pastor there, what he did was he just held firm and listened and said, well, um, I understand you did that. With the previous pastor, but I, uh, feel like God guides me in what I should preach about, and so I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to pass my sermon topics past you. And that was it. I'm just not going to do it.
Rusty George: Uh, that's so good. I mean, a lot of this is just emotional intelligence and it takes a while to earn the chips with some people that you have to spend once in a while, uh, which makes leadership so nuanced. So one of the limits and struggles that all churches have, especially those with solo pastors, is resources and volunteers. What's the best way that when you're in such really tight constraints, maybe you've only got a few. Volunteers, and they seem to do everything. Or you only have a limited budget that you can use. What's the best way to really utilize your resources?
Gary Mcintosh: You have to set priorities. Um, I think you have to determine, uh um well, I would say you have to look at the church. Um, seriously, what condition are we in? Uh, what does our future hold? Um, I recommend that a church look back about five or ten years at the maximum. And what is our direction? What has been the history? Are we declining? Are we plateaued? Are we growing a little? What's going on? Uh, whatever's happened in the last ten years is a real predictor of where the church is going. So, uh, if we continue in the same pathway that we've been in the last five or ten years, where is this likely to take us? And so I think that's the first step. We got to analyze, um, where we are, where we're going, and we have to honestly accept that, acknowledge, uh, where we're at. And then I think we have to uh, look at the community we're in. Who are the people in our community who don't know Christ? Uh, what are their hurts, their needs, their issues? Uh, how can we help God put us in this community for now? Um, so how can we perhaps, uh, begin to care for people in our community who aren't believers, and how can we minister to them? And so I think then you have to compare those two things. What are our resources? Who do we have? Uh, what are the needs in the community? And where could those two things kind of meld together, uh, that we could attend to, uh, minister, um, and that might call for some hard decisions, uh, that we have to reallocate our resources in different directions, uh, to different ministries. Um, I recommend that you don't typically cancel, uh, ministries, although sometimes you do, but I think it's better to add something new. And if you have an older ministry, you maybe move resources away from the older ministry. You keep the older ministry, but you move the resources away, and um, maybe just let it die a slow death on its own. Um, but you resource new ministries. It always takes new, uh, units. The old church growth principle said, uh, it takes new units for new growth. And what that meant was, um, in a church, as it is right now, if new people wanted to come, they would be coming. Uh, if the programming a church has right now, uh, was attractive to new people, new people would already be there. Well, obviously, maybe they're not. So, um, if new people aren't attracted to what we're doing right now, uh, or outreach efforts and things like that, what makes us think in three years that we don't do anything new? That all of a sudden people will just be coming? Well, they mhm won't, um, and so what that means is, uh, you start a, uh, new ministry for new people. So that's where we've got to execute our community and find out what are the hurts and the pains and the struggles of nonchristian people in the community. How could we begin to minister to that? And as we start new ministries that focus on real needs in the community, then new people start coming. And now we have an opportunity to speak the gospel to them and to see them believing in Christ and perhaps becoming a part, uh, of our church. Uh, but it does call for us to take a real serious look at our church as it is, and the community, and then see how we could reallocate whatever resources we have towards some new ministries that will reach out to some new people.
Rusty George: That's so good, Gary. This has been so helpful. I mean, such great stuff. Whether you're a solo pastor or have a multi member staff, uh, you've mentioned so many great things, from how to deal with leaders, to resources, to volunteers, to the community. What is one action step that a solo pastor in particular could, uh, take to faithfully lead in their current season of ministry?
Gary Mcintosh: Oh, wow, I could think of lots of things, uh, they could do. But I would say, um, just building on what I said, uh, I would take a serious look, um, at the church over the last decade. Um, look at, um, what's been happening with the, um, baptisms, what's been happening with the, um, giving, what's been happening with the, um, attendance of the church. Get a good handle, uh, on what's been happening over the last decade, and then project that out another ten years. Um, if we continue the same way we've been going for the last decade, where is that going to take us? And sit down with your leaders, your elders, deacons, your session, whatever your church, uh, leadership, uh, board, uh, is, and, uh, have a serious conversation. Um, everything begins by acknowledging where we're at and then beginning to think about where we need to go when it comes to, uh, issues of recovery. Um, let's say a person who is, uh, an alcoholic, uh, they really don't start to recover until they admit that they're an alcoholic. Uh, I think for many churches, they really don't start to thrive until they admit where they are. And, uh, they've got to get out of the proverbial sand, take a serious look of what's been happening in the last decade, project that out ten years ahead, and then sit, uh, down and have a serious conversation. If we don't do something different, uh, where are we going to be in ten years? Do we want to be there? And God wants us to be there. Um, God's entrusted this church to us as his stewards. Um, he's the leader, but we're stewards of the gospel for him here in this place. And, um, what do we need to do to be a healthier, vibrant, thriving church in the next decade? Um, I think just starting that conversation is important. Uh, there's obviously a lot more that's going to have to happen, uh, than just conversation. But a lot of times in solo pastor churches, the leaders really haven't seriously looked at the past and thought about the future. And so that's where I would start and start the conversation.
Rusty George: That's so good. Well, the book is called The Solo Pastor by Baker Books. Gary, this is your 27th book I can't even imagine. So well done. And thank you for your years of ministry and support, uh, for pastors through, uh, your time teaching at ah, Talbot, your time working with Church Growth Institutes. Would you just tell everybody where they can get a copy of The Solo Pastor?
Gary Mcintosh: Sure. It's available, um, through Baker books. It's also available on AmazonBOOKS. Um.com, um, that would probably be the two easiest places. If there are still some Christian bookstores in your community, I'm sure you can get it from them, too. But, uh, as we know, uh, it seems like, uh, most things now are available online. So that's where I would go.
Rusty George: That's great. Well, thank you for your time.
Gary Mcintosh: Yeah, if anybody wants to connect with me, they can go to my website, uh, which is churchgrowthnetwork.com, and, um, they can connect with me through that, or if they have any of my books, all my contact information is in the back of the book.
Rusty George: That's perfect. Gary, this has been a blessing to me and I know, to many of our listeners. So thank you so much for your time and wish you the best with the book and hope a lot of people pick it up.

Gary Mcintosh: Thank you, Rusty. It's been great to be with you.

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