Simple Faith With Rusty George

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Rusty George
As a pastor or staff member of a church, it is common to experience compassion fatigue and find that you spend so much time caring for others, you're not caring for yourself. Saga wants to help foster healthy churches by facilitating the support of the emotional, mental and relational health of their leaders. As a partner of Saga, pastors and staff can confidently and easily begin their journey by being uniquely matched to a therapist that best fits their needs.

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Rusty George
To learn more about our church partnership with Saga, go to sagacenter.org. That's Saga Center dot org.

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Intro/Outro
Welcome to Leading Simple with Rusty George. Our goal is to make following Jesus and leading others a bit more simple. Here's your host, Rusty George.

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Rusty George
Hey, welcome to Leading Simple. I'm your host, Rusty George. Today we bring back one of our favorite guests, the detective, Jim Wallace, is sharing with us more insight into apologetics, the crucifixion as a crime scene and what it's like to be on Dateline. I love this guy. You've probably seen him before. If you've heard any of our podcast with him before, you know how fantastic he is.

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Rusty George
But he just brings such a unique perspective. As a former cold Case investigator, now turned Christian and apologist, he uses his cold case detective skills to investigate the claims of Jesus and finds that there's tremendous truth in them. Hey, this is going to be a podcast that not only educates you and edified your faith, it's going to be one of those you want to share with somebody because they just bring so much wisdom.

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Rusty George
You're going to love this as well as the people that you choose to share it with. So make sure that you subscribe. Make sure that you share this with somebody. And here at the moment, we're going to hear from Detective J. Warner Wallace. Well, I want to thank our friends from Saga for sponsoring the podcast this month. They do such an incredible job of helping you get connected with a counselor.

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Rusty George
We have sent so many of our staff and parishioners to Saga, and they've always been so, so grateful. So make sure that you check them out. Saga Center dot org. Saga Center S.T.A.R. Eco Hour. Okay, Here's my conversation with Detective Jim Wallace. Jay Warner. WALLACE a.k.a. Jim, A.K.A. Detective. It's always good to have you on the podcast, buddy.

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Rusty George
I am so grateful for you. We met years ago and I think we got connected because of a friend of mine in Kentucky named Bryan Marshall, who had you out to speak to his college students and said, You got to get this guy in. And we have and we've met several times now, a couple of times in person, a couple of times on podcasts.

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Rusty George
Thank you for joining us again.

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J. Warner Wallace
Yeah, glad to do it. That's true. I forgot. That's how we first got connected. Yeah, exactly. That's a fine association. Glad you're back on your podcast.

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Rusty George
Yeah, well, I think the last time we talked was during the COVID year, we were all locked down and, you know, we spoke via a podcast for our Our Road to Easter series. So how have you been? It's been a wild three years. So tell me about what's going on in your world and and ministry and how are you finding God using you right now?

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J. Warner Wallace
Well, I think that, you know, there's seasons for everything, right? So when you're in certain decades of your life, you you feel like you're called to different things. And I always think that one of the biggest mistakes we can make is to think that every decade is the same as the last or that whatever it was we were doing, that God was using us for.

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J. Warner Wallace
And some past, you know, part of our life is the same going forward. And I think as men, because we identify with our work, it's really hard for us to let go of. Our work is like we're kind of letting go of who we are. And so I've just had to learn as you get older, that you have to kind of recreate yourself, recreate, you know, what your role is, where I can best use you.

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J. Warner Wallace
And sometimes that's that's, you know, right here in your own house. It doesn't have to be, you know, in writing books or but all the things I had been doing in the past. So I just kind of see this transition. And I think when you're in your fifties, you find yourself really wanting to be more courageous and and, you know, you're constantly somebody called me when you come across the plant.

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J. Warner Wallace
Is it to do something you say, Yes. As you get to your sixties, you feel like, hey, there's some wisdom here. And just stepping back a bit, and especially as I've got grandchildren coming that that now it's time to leverage the wisdom side of this rather than just the constant busyness that we find ourselves in when we're in the middle of a career.

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J. Warner Wallace
And even though I came out of my career and started, you know, working as an apologist, not looking for another career, I'm just trying to figure out where is it that God would want want to use us. And so, yeah, things are changing. For example, in the last two years, a lot of our work has shifted from making the case for Christianity, which I still do, of course, and I'm still writing about that stuff, but I'm also working with law enforcement couples that are suffering.

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J. Warner Wallace
Their marriages are troubled, and they've suffered either through trauma, injury, all kinds of different things. And they have been partnering with Billy Graham Association on their marriage resiliency retreats. That's a lot of our work now. It's six, four weeks a year that we just spend with couples. So, you know, you have certain certain seasons. So I would say, you know, I'm still writing another book.

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J. Warner Wallace
I'm finishing right now. But a lot of this is shifting toward kind of the the white the the kind of grandfatherly wise years you have in your sixties and seventies.

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Rusty George
I want to ask you about that because we've talked about that with some people on the podcast before, especially in law enforcement. They live at this high level of adrenaline, oftentimes throughout the day, sometimes not so much, but sometimes that's, you know, it's full alert. They go into a situation, they don't know what's going to happen, and then they're expected to have the adrenaline calmed down before they go home, interact with their family in a loving and kind way, and then go back the next day and do it all over again.

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Rusty George
And I think that that is a microcosm of what the rest of our world has experienced over the last three years of adrenaline, of, you know, what what tragedy is going to happen next. Right. How are you helping couples that are living kind of on the front lines of this, be able to deal with this vicarious trauma that so many people pick up along the way?

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Rusty George
I mean, what are some skill sets you're finding or helpful?

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J. Warner Wallace
Well, I can tell you that it's it's it's it's a actually a crisis that the country is not going to realize for a couple of years. Maybe one generation will have to figure it out. So it happens is when an officer does something that's that's absolutely reprehensible. And we've seen that where somebody will do something that every officer who's working would flinch yet as well and say, oh, my gosh, what's going on?

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J. Warner Wallace
What? No. Was you thinking Right? Well, that makes national headlines and it's an immediate impact on culture and all kinds of shifts occur. Suddenly there's a new DEA has been elected all over the country. There's entirely new ways of applying the law. Everything changes overnight. But when officers say, okay, you know what? It's time for us to sort of pull back and we're going to be more reactive than proactive because we can't do anything proactively that won't get punished.

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J. Warner Wallace
So we're just going to you know, if you need us, call us. Happy to take the report. You know, there are no patrol firemen. Those are all reactive positions. But they used to think that police officers are proactive. We're supposed to have patrol cars. Who's our very presence is supposed to suppress crime. The presence of firemen is not suppress fire.

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J. Warner Wallace
Mm hmm. So it's a proactive job. If you treat like a reactive job, you will not see the immediate consequences for about a generation. And then you look around and say, what happened to our city? Because you removed the ability that law enforcement's always had. Mm hmm. And as police officers, there's got to be a generational shift because there's still a bunch of people you hired five years ago who thought the job was to go out and patrol and work proactively.

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J. Warner Wallace
But now that you know, they aren't allowed to do that or they are allowed, but they're punished if they do, you know, why are you stopping me? Well, just because you hire me. But the role is I am supposed to proactively make sure bad things not happen. But if that's been removed from police officers, you're going to need about a generation for the new type of officer to get in place who's not troubled by that.

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J. Warner Wallace
Mm hmm. Who is not? You know, it's a different kind of person you're hiring. Mm hmm. But the stuff that we're working with is really officers who have been involved in terrible events that. That were no fault of their own. Mm hmm. We had an officer last year, for example, who is hit by a drunk driver, and, you know, his life was forever.

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J. Warner Wallace
He's now had, you know, dozens of surgeries and he's miserable in pain all the time. And, of course, his marriage suffered. Mm hmm. So how do you help these folks who have suffered those kinds of crisis? Mm hmm. And so I think that that's part of it is that you've got a lot of folks who are stuck in a job that is grossly underpaid.

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J. Warner Wallace
Mm hmm. That no human should have to do anyway. That, for the most part, is underappreciated. You know, it's so funny. Officers respond so positively for the least amount of encouragement because they don't get it anywhere. So they're so hungry for it that if you just encourage them, you know, remind them of how important this is. There's only the word used for a minister is only used about two for two groups.

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J. Warner Wallace
It's it's pastors and ministers and it's police officers and Romans 13. Those are the two places you see that Greek were being used. Mm hmm. And so as a title, you know, you are you know, it really translated into servant. But the point is we translated into their minister in Romans 13. It's applied to those who are who are peacekeepers, who are who are, you know, working as a representation of a peacekeepers.

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J. Warner Wallace
Mm hmm. So I think this if we just remind officers the value of their role and here's I always say it, I would say it this way. Look, there's only one necessary profession upon which every other profession is continue, and that is law enforcement. Mm hmm. You can't have anybody else in place. Doctors, even firemen, until you have someone there to keep the order because your doctor is going to get robbed by his next patient.

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J. Warner Wallace
Not if there's a police officer in place. That's why every place in America starts off, the first thing you do is you hire a sheriff. Mm hmm. He had volunteer fire departments. But you had a page, Sheriff? Mm hmm. Why? Well, because this is the one necessary profession upon which everything else is contingent. Mm hmm. But officers don't even know they're.

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J. Warner Wallace
I think about. Think of it that way. And what that means for us is not a position of privilege. You know, the foundation of your house is necessary. Everything else is built on top of that. But you don't even think about your foundation until something cracks. Mm hmm. So for a lot of us, you know, the foundation is the thing.

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J. Warner Wallace
You walk on, spit on the street until it breaks. That's kind of who we are. Right. So expect that you're not going to get any respect. They're not going to get paid anything. But. Right. But you are going to be foundational that encourages you to suffer through the things because, you know, without you, your city doesn't run. And so this is why it's important for us to keep on encouraging police officers.

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Rusty George
Encouragement goes a long ways. What are some simple ways? I mean, when we hear of somebody that served in the military, it's common for us to say thank you for your service. Is that an appropriate phrase for a police officer? Is it buying their coffee when they're standing behind us? What's the best way to really encourage a police officer?

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J. Warner Wallace
Well, practically a couple of things. You number one, I don't need to buy them their coffee. Most of us aren't allowed to accept those kinds of gratuities anyway.

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Rusty George
Okay.

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J. Warner Wallace
So. So that that's buy not necessary, but that your words matter. But even more importantly, we have to stop voting for people who have to vote for your priorities. And I think that law enforcement, we are discouraged more by district attorneys that are now elected in these major cities that are making a mess of law. We have one in Los Angeles County.

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J. Warner Wallace
I mean, this is somebody who has to be removed from office. And I'm not a political person and I don't think of myself as a political animal. I don't want to be making a statement here. But the reality of it is that George Gascon has ruined this county. I only know that because I worked so deeply with the district attorneys.

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J. Warner Wallace
The deputy D.A. is in that office, so I'm listening to them constantly. People don't realize what's happening, but you will in a generation. Mm hmm. And then it'll be irreversible. So that's why I think it's important for us to. I don't. I'm not. I don't care what side of the aisle you might be on. Law enforcement when properly done.

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J. Warner Wallace
I'm all for that. If you've got a bad law enforcement agency, you've got a bad foundation, everything is going to crack. Mm hmm. So if we'd have a good law enforcement community, then we need to support them with your vote. It's not about voting more money for us. It's about make sure you've got district attorneys in place who will actually enforce the law.

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J. Warner Wallace
Mm hmm. And that's that's a huge. Because what's happening now is that I've seen in Los Angeles County, for example, officers are so incredibly discouraged by the fact you can take people to jail for things that are just horrific and they are released pretty quickly. And that's one of the problems we see over and over again is, is that they aren't charged at all.

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J. Warner Wallace
No enhancements are charged or they're just released. Mm hmm. And that there's a sense that that the inequality we've seen socially is to be remedied with just a lack of enforcement. And I think we have to deal with the inequalities. But lack of enforcement is not the way to deal with them, because that just that means you don't care anymore about victims.

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J. Warner Wallace
Right. Yet always balance that, you know, victims and perpetrators. I care about both, but I cannot care about perpetrators to the expense of the victims or vice versa. So it's holding those two things in balance.

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Rusty George
It's so well said. Okay. Let's let's get into your your field of study over the last few years. You were at.

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J. Warner Wallace
Now that we've alienated everybody who is from law enforcement, so we get to cut that first part out altogether so we can actually talk about the things that do matter, which is Jesus of Nazareth. And I'll tell you, if it wasn't or if it wasn't for the COVID year that last time you and I talked, this book wouldn't have got written.

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J. Warner Wallace
So. So a lot of the books I write are this things that I researched for five years, ten years, and then I finally wrote a book about it.

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Rusty George
Well, tell us about this book.

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J. Warner Wallace
Yeah, this is different. This is one that I had like a bloggers sense. I mean, I did the research, but not to the level. It's necessary to write a book because you want sources. You want to know. So this is got this is a book that is I think it's very accessible. It's not written as an academic book, but if you're interested, there are the resources and there's 50 pages of footnotes in the book and another 270 pages online.

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J. Warner Wallace
Wow. In the book, I think it reads more like a crime drama, like a true crime drama. But the idea here is that we took a look at Jesus without the New Testament. So many ways to make a case. You're looking at the stuff that's in the crime scene and you also look at all the stuff that was never in the crime scene.

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J. Warner Wallace
But as part of your case proper in front of a jury. And those two things go together when you make a case in front of a jury. Mm hmm. And I've had a number of cases where where there's nothing in the crime scene to begin with. These are like no body. Murders are a good example of that, where someone kills his wife and then claims that she ran off and then doesn't report it for a week.

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J. Warner Wallace
When he finally does reported, he reports as a missing person. I get the case 30 years later. There's no, no, no evidence was ever collected. It was never worked as a homicide. So now what do I do? I got nothing in the crime scene. Well, you make those cases with everything that's outside the crime scene. So this is what this book does.

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J. Warner Wallace
It takes a look at everything you can know about Jesus. If there wasn't a single New Testament manuscript available to you. Mm hmm. That's the thought experiment here. And it turns out you would know everything that you know Now, if there was. If every single New Testament manuscript, papyrus and document was utterly destroyed. Because you can recover it just from the history of humanity.

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J. Warner Wallace
Wow. So what we do is we talk about how every crime scene is like a bomb that goes off, and that bomb is going to be, you know, someone's temporary get to the point where they do something stupid. And every bomb has got a fuze that burns up to detonation. And after it explodes, you've got shrapnel and debris all over the crime.

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J. Warner Wallace
You know, all of the all over the blast radius. And this is what happens with Jesus as well. You have is there are some something we call the first century, which in fact is not the first century. There's a lot of centuries before the first century, but we're calling that the first century for a reason. Whether you call it B.C.E. and C.E. or you call it B.C and A.D. doesn't matter.

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J. Warner Wallace
There's something you're calling the first century, and you're calling it that for a reason. So what is the fuze that burns up to the first century? And then what is all the blast radius stuff tell you about after the first century? It turns out if you knew nothing about the first century, you could figure out why we call it the first century from simply looking at the fuze and the fallout.

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J. Warner Wallace
Wow. So this is a book which I just assemble the evidences and the fuze and the fallout. And the evidence is that Fuze or things like the history of culture and Roman Empire leading up to the first century, the history of spirituality and all the mythologies that were developed up to the first century, and also the history of prophecy in the Jewish scriptures and what they point to in the first century and all the fallout is all the ways that Jesus, unlike any other person in the history of persons, has impacted literature, art, music, education, science and world religions.

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J. Warner Wallace
Hmm. Those six things were forever changed. Not just for those of us in the West, but for everyone on planet Earth. Mm hmm. Because of Jesus of Nazareth. Somebody who, if you think about it, is an unlikely candidate for having that kind of influence in the first century. So that's what this book is really about.

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Rusty George
Do we have a title yet?

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J. Warner Wallace
Oh, that book. This book I've already written. This book is already out there. This is Person of Interest.

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Rusty George
Oh, okay.

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J. Warner Wallace
So I wrote this book on there in that COVID year. And I tell you, we would not.

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Rusty George
Have thought this was the one you're working. Okay?

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J. Warner Wallace
No, the one I'm working on right now is we're calling it right now, tentatively is called Chasing Leads. This is a little different, but this is 15 Rules for Life that you learn from investigating death. And all of these rules for life also highlight an attribute of human nature that is only really most robustly described in Scripture.

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Rusty George
Is one of those rules. The husband is always the one who did it.

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J. Warner Wallace
Yeah, sadly, because it seems.

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Rusty George
Yeah, it seems like that seems to be the norm, right?

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J. Warner Wallace
Yeah. Well, I'll talk. I talked about this in one of the chapters, this new book, because I call this the proximity principle. So when you when you work in a homicide, you can imagine there's the day of the murder, the killer is in very close proximity to the victim. I mean, probably standing right next to him. Mm hmm.

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J. Warner Wallace
Because that's how murders occur, usually. Mm hmm. So they are in close proximity. So you can work investigations like this by simply working the proximity. In other words, imagine your victim is in the center of the bull's eye, and you have concentric circles from there. Mm hmm. Well, the first circle of proximity is relational. And so you're asking, what are the what are the victims most intimate relationships?

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J. Warner Wallace
Because that's probably where they got killed. Mm hmm. And for most of us, that's our spouse. Or it's boyfriend or girlfriend. But if there's no one in that sense, concentric circles that fits the description, then you're going out one layer. Well, who are the friends? Who are their coworkers? So you're just moving outward in the concentric circle of relationships.

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J. Warner Wallace
And if you run through all of those and there's nobody that's got a relationship relational proximity, well, then you're looking for a geographic. Geographic proximity. Well, who live next door? Who do they work with and who cares? Yep. And when you expend all of those and you've got no answers and I've got one of those as well. I had one from 1972 where a girl was just killed, snatched off the street from a somebody who was just driving through.

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J. Warner Wallace
Our town has no proximity, either relationally or geographically to the victim or the family. Mm hmm. Those take four. That was 1972 case we solved in 2019. Wow. So those cases take a lot longer to solve because I don't have the proximity principle working for me. Right, right, right. You know, it turns out that that proximity principle is also a helpful rule for a living, though, because who you allow into your circle matters.

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J. Warner Wallace
Your relationships are not just tangential. Your relationships are primary. Because who are you going with in that circle?

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Rusty George
Right.

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J. Warner Wallace
You know, I always say as a detective that I have a very tight circle around whom I draw you know, I draw a tight circle around who I am willing to cry for. Mm hmm. So I have my immediate family in that circle. I have. I have my. My dog died a couple two months ago. We had her for 13 years.

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J. Warner Wallace
She was in that circle for sure. Mm hmm. My cat is not in that circle.

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Rusty George
So the cats are No one circle.

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J. Warner Wallace
That's right. So that means, though, is if I. If if if you got shot, I could work your case, because I've made sure if your kids got hurt, I can work that case. If my neighbor's kids got hurt, I could work that case wide because they're not in my circle. I hate it. That's terrible, right? Because that means you have to be at least emotionally detached enough to run an investigation.

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J. Warner Wallace
Or guess what? No one gets investigated. Right. So what Christ is asking me to do is to open my circle and reconsider who I've constricted the circle around. But. But I know that there's a kind of a way of working for so many years, working homicides that I've just tightened the circle too tight. And most of us want to retire.

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J. Warner Wallace
One of the things we struggle with is we just constricted this to the point where only a few people are in it. And as we get older, they're dying. And then you find yourself alone. So it's important for us at least to think about that.

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Rusty George
Boy, isn't that the case of COVID, though? I mean, what we experienced in 2020 realized, boy, we really do miss people. We are not created to be alone. But it's all goes back to Genesis, doesn't it?

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J. Warner Wallace
Oh, absolutely.

00;21;48;14 - 00;22;04;15
Rusty George
And we desperately need each other. The question is, who gets in that circle? And that seems to be the one thing the church has the answer for, that no one else is giving an answer for in the fact of biblical community and this idea of having someone to trust. Don't you think.

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J. Warner Wallace
It's not just that? You're absolutely right about that Bible community, but it's also that Christianity has a unique perspective on why it is that under every study you could find and I did a lot of studies last year, under every study you can find about human flourishing, how humans thrive, relationships is always at the top. The longest study, for example, of happiness ever conducted over about six decades.

00;22;32;08 - 00;22;49;26
J. Warner Wallace
It's about your relationships. Well, why would that be the case? Wouldn't it be better from an evolutionary perspective? Because, you know, life's hard. Have you ever noticed as you get married now you have two people you are passionately worried about, not just yourself, your spouse. Then you have kids and I'm going to work, but my kids are about to have a grandchild and I'm going to work my grant.

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J. Warner Wallace
Like, the more you put on your plate, the more immeasurable you are just worrying all the time. But what could go wrong? Right. If you just. If it's just you, you can handle that. Right? Right. But it turns out the reason why we are we are we are created in the image of our creator. And only under Christianity does this relationship make sense.

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J. Warner Wallace
You know, our scriptures say that God is love, not that God can teach you how to love or that God is capable of love or God is the source of love. No, but that God is love. This is not cannot be said of Allah or any other version of God, because even Allah, if He is loving, He has to learn how to love.

00;23;25;16 - 00;23;47;06
J. Warner Wallace
At the moment He creates beings that he can love. He has no experience of love until he creates a being in which he can have a loving relationship. Unless, of course, you're Yahweh. Well, now you're in this triune loving relationship from all eternity. Hmm. God is love because God is triune, as Augustine said, the love, the lover, the beloved in the spirit of love between them.

00;23;47;14 - 00;24;10;07
J. Warner Wallace
Mm hmm. So that is the why I think the Christian worldview actually explains why all modern research points to relationship as the source of human flourishing. It's because you're created in the image of a creator that is in relationship from all eternity. Hmm. So don't be surprised that you actually have those same. Much of what you discover is that the things you learn, you earn for the things you seek.

00;24;10;18 - 00;24;18;26
J. Warner Wallace
You're seeking because you've invaded with it. Yeah, you can smell it. You can taste it, but you can't yet grasp it until you're in the presence of God.

00;24;19;17 - 00;24;27;14
Rusty George
Mm hmm. So good. Okay, so let me ask you about this. You came to Faith how many years ago?

00;24;28;10 - 00;24;32;29
J. Warner Wallace
Well, I'm 60. Give me 62. I was 35, so of 27 years now.

00;24;33;00 - 00;24;56;23
Rusty George
27 years ago, you come to faith. So we're in the mid-nineties at that point. And you had your own questions. You'd seen your share of violence. You did your own research. You thought you could disprove God. And through apologetics, you come to faith. We are dealing with an entirely new generation, several new generations since then that have their own questions about God and certainly post-COVID.

00;24;56;23 - 00;25;24;03
Rusty George
I think we're going to have another kind of iteration of what we were asking, much like after 911. Yeah. So what do you I mean, you work with a lot of students. What are you finding to be their questions versus the questions you had? And Sean McDowell was on this podcast and we talked about, you know, the difference between, well, there's there's timeless questions and then timely that are kind of referencing that, you know, the area in which we live, which was a brilliant perspective I think the two of you came up with.

00;25;24;04 - 00;25;42;01
Rusty George
But yeah, you know what, what are you finding to be the things they're most concerned about versus maybe when you first came to Faith? Hey, let me interrupt this podcast for just a second. To remind you, if you're not taking care of your mental health, nobody is. Step up and go check out Saga Center, dawg. To find out more.

00;25;42;08 - 00;25;43;16
Rusty George
All right, back to our show.

00;25;44;09 - 00;26;01;04
J. Warner Wallace
Well, okay, so my answers will probably sound much like Sean's because we do so much work together. And we wrote that book. So the next generation will know who wrote that book together. So it was kind of our observations together of young people as we were serving them. So I would say a couple of things. And number one, it's not does God exist?

00;26;01;04 - 00;26;19;14
J. Warner Wallace
Is it there is a God? Is he good? That's a big question for a lot of people, right? Yeah, because why would God have these types of exclusive feelings or thoughts about certain groups of people? Why would he treat certain groups this way, especially in a world that's more and more inclusive and has a raised definitions of right or wrong, good or bad.

00;26;20;03 - 00;26;34;13
J. Warner Wallace
But I think the other thing for me is and I say this all the time, it's not so much, well, do you have any evidence that God exists? That might be true for when I was younger, but now it's like, do I want to wear this t shirt? I do. I don't want to be associated with this. It's identity.

00;26;34;17 - 00;26;54;09
J. Warner Wallace
Mm hmm. If we're identity generation, identity, identity, identity, identity politics, gender identity, everything's about identity. How is it you find yourself not this is just another chapter of the book that I'm writing right now. Identity is really important and making a decision about where you form and how you form your identity is pivotal to how you living your life.

00;26;55;05 - 00;27;15;29
J. Warner Wallace
And a lot of things about human flourishing are based on whether you can appropriate. Here's what's going to happen. Every if you base you only three ways to form identity. One is inside out. I decide who I am. And we're in that kind of a culture, right? Whatever I'm thinking is who I am. And then you're going to base your identity on your personal preferences, desires, and thoughts.

00;27;16;26 - 00;27;43;18
J. Warner Wallace
The other way is outside in, and that's we're like some cultures, but potentially historic ancient cultures. You were a. WALLACE Well, that's your identity. It's a. WALLACE identity or it was your profession, a larger outside group. I'm a carpenter and or I'm a farmer. That became my identity. It's an outside in approach now, both of those approaches have limitations because, let's face it, an outside end doesn't give you much kind of creativity or a much unique identity.

00;27;43;18 - 00;28;11;23
J. Warner Wallace
And inside out is willy nilly in the sense that if I change my desires, does my identity change? And what I've discovered is the points of crisis in your life. If you retract them over time, the highs and lows, most of your lows came at a point where you were struggling with your identity. Hmm. So for me, when I left law enforcement and started, you know, writing books, thank God I had books to write because I struggle with my changing identity.

00;28;12;00 - 00;28;12;11
Rusty George
Right.

00;28;12;12 - 00;28;41;16
J. Warner Wallace
You know, I'm no longer I'm retired. I never wanted that word associated with my profession. I stayed and worked as a consultant because I didn't want to be thought of as retired. And you know, what is that about? It's an identity struggle so that the more that your identity is tied into temporal sources and that's an outside in or an inside out, the more you're going to struggle with identity changes over the course of your life and the more it's going to challenge your mental health and your anxiety and all the other things that come along with that.

00;28;41;26 - 00;29;06;28
J. Warner Wallace
The third way to form identity is not inside out or outside in its downside up. It's when I look up for identity because that's a transcendent source that doesn't change over time. And if I can hold on to that, I will never experience the hills and valleys of identity change. Hmm. And that also makes it also helps me to know my value that my son and I are writing a son.

00;29;06;29 - 00;29;28;24
J. Warner Wallace
Note My oldest son is a big comic book geek, you know, and loves comic books and has been reading his whole life and so we had an opportunity. Next year we're releasing a graphic novel, but this graphic novel is it's a Christian idea, but it's not explicitly Christian. It's about a murder series in which the victims are increasingly more important to their community.

00;29;29;11 - 00;29;46;23
J. Warner Wallace
Mm hmm. We're just trying to examine what makes you important to begin with. Why would you think somebody could be more important to your community to begin with? Mm hmm. Where is identity formed? By matter of outside in is what people think of you inside out. But what makes you important? And that's why we're trying to examine the three ways you form identity.

00;29;46;23 - 00;30;08;01
J. Warner Wallace
Because only one equalizes the field so that there is no ism of either racism or whatever it may be. If we all are, our identity is all together. A down side up. Well, then we're going to probably get along a lot better, for one, and we're going to know that we matter. Even if I'm not succeeding as well as the next guy.

00;30;08;01 - 00;30;26;28
J. Warner Wallace
Right. Or whatever it may be. So I'm not as pretty as the next girl, whatever it might be. Mm hmm. You won't be forming your identity from the outside in or from the inside out anymore. Mm hmm. And that's where I think mental health. That's why humans flourish and thrive when they have some type of transcendent identity that transcends time and circumstance.

00;30;28;11 - 00;30;55;28
Rusty George
Okay, so let's let's flesh it out a little bit, because to your point about whether or not Christianity is true, to whether or not Christianity is good, somebody in the identity world that's deriving their identity from who they associate with sexual preferences, whatever would say Christianity alienates them or creates some kind of. You're not in. I'm in. Versus us versus them kind of mentality.

00;30;56;06 - 00;31;05;11
Rusty George
That doesn't sound very good. So how does Jesus way of looking at things and saying some things are sin and some things are not actually and to their benefit?

00;31;06;04 - 00;31;27;02
J. Warner Wallace
Okay, So let's just I always you know, I was 35 years as an atheist and so I always look at it and say of a non-religious person first, because it turns out if there's a good reason to believe approach that as an atheist as I was, why wouldn't you accept the reality in Christianity, which actually argues for the same thing as an atheist or what I would have said, this is not about excluding, right?

00;31;27;03 - 00;32;01;28
J. Warner Wallace
I want my friends and family members to flourish, to thrive, to to actually, under every human metric, do the best they can do to experience the most they can in terms of wellness, that's both emotional wellness, mental wellness, and physical wellness. Hmm. So when I say to somebody, Hey, I think you need to stop using heroin every day, it's not because I'm trying to to exclude you, or it's that there's a behavior that you're engaged in that I know is preventing you from the most flourishing you could experience as a human being.

00;32;02;26 - 00;32;27;20
J. Warner Wallace
Now, once you're convinced that there are certain metrics by which people flourish and the data is out there for example, young people, I don't care, and they've been trying for years to find some way to reverse this, this reality. But the data represents this. If you were being raised by your two biological parents in a low conflict setting, you have got the best possible case scenario, not not low conflict setting.

00;32;27;21 - 00;32;46;03
J. Warner Wallace
In other words, your parents get along with each other and they are your two biologicals. I wasn't raised that way. My parents divorced when I was three. My mom never remarried, so I was raised by one biological parent. And I don't have a family like that now. I have two boys that are my biological children and two girls we adopted.

00;32;46;23 - 00;33;12;17
J. Warner Wallace
It's better than what they were, what they're experiencing before. But it would be far better if they were raised by their biological parents in a low conflict setting. Hmm. So when I advocate for relationships that produce children, I was a product of two biological parents. That eliminates certain other forms. Which isn't to say that those you might find a way, but under every metric we study this, kids do best.

00;33;12;17 - 00;33;32;18
J. Warner Wallace
They flourish best. They are. They are less poverty, higher education, less trouble in school, less arrest rates, less teenage pregnancy, less mental health, less physical health issues. If they are raised by two biological parents in a low conflict setting. So if not, if that actually is how you thrive, then my desire for you to experience that is not about excluding somebody.

00;33;32;18 - 00;33;48;11
J. Warner Wallace
It's because I love you enough to want you to flourish. Mm hmm. So that's and it turns out that Scripture affirms everything we know. Now, I would have said as an atheist, even though that's true, I would have said, Well, yeah, okay. So the ancients saw what made people flourish and they built a religion around it. Mm hmm.

00;33;48;18 - 00;34;11;13
J. Warner Wallace
Okay. That's where you want to tell you what, if you study what Scripture teaches about relationships, you will flourish. Mm hmm. If you study it, and as first Jon says, actually do it. Yeah, you will flourish. Right. And if nothing else, that's a start. Mm hmm. So I think that that's where I usually come at. Is that. Yeah, it's not about trying to is that there are some behaviors in heroin use is clearly an extreme.

00;34;11;19 - 00;34;22;29
J. Warner Wallace
Mm hmm. But there are other lesser behaviors. If you just eat too much sugar, you're not going to flourish. If I tell you, Hey, I want you to stop that so you can flourish, are you going to say then, that I hate you or that I love you?

00;34;23;13 - 00;34;23;22
Rusty George
Yeah.

00;34;24;13 - 00;34;40;06
J. Warner Wallace
So there's a range of things you could do that are going to keep you from flourishing. And so what we're doing as Christians is just showing you, hey, here's here's how God has designed you to flourish and you're going to have a hard time coming out from under that. And you might be able to find some examples of people who have done it.

00;34;40;09 - 00;34;51;11
J. Warner Wallace
We're talking, of course, any study only reveals, you know, majorities, you know, generalities. Right. But generally, people only three people flourish under those settings. And that's what we're trying to help people see.

00;34;51;22 - 00;35;12;06
Rusty George
That's so well said. Okay. So for parent out there that they have a child, teenager, young adult that has walked away from faith because they find it to be too narrow, too exclusive us versus them, or maybe there's even something they think I don't even know if I agree with that or believe that anymore. What's the best way they can help them?

00;35;12;06 - 00;35;23;18
Rusty George
Because every parent wants to logic their kid to death or give them a book and make them read it and say, Oh, this will fix everything. Just read this. Yeah. What what have you noticed is the best way to help kids that are kind of processing.

00;35;24;05 - 00;35;44;15
J. Warner Wallace
Well, first of all, help them to understand that there is no view of the world that isn't exclusive and that the view they're holding, which is excluding ours, is excluding the Christian worldview. So it's not a matter of whether you can find a worldview that's more inclusive. It's about which worldview includes the right stuff. Right. Yeah, because every worldview includes something and excludes something else.

00;35;45;05 - 00;35;52;25
J. Warner Wallace
But even that logical statement does make a lot of sense unless you first build a relationship with your kids. Mm hmm. So this is all about relationship.

00;35;52;25 - 00;35;53;08
Rusty George
And that's so.

00;35;53;08 - 00;36;10;24
J. Warner Wallace
True. And, you know, I've got a chapter in the next book about fathers. And this is really, you know, I learned this work in gangs. I built a relationship with local gangsters, and I was already an old man, pretty much by their standards. So I didn't have a relationship like a friend whom I had a relationship like a father, because I was old enough to be these people's father.

00;36;10;27 - 00;36;28;07
J. Warner Wallace
Hmm. So. So for me, it was about developing a paternal mentorship with young men who did not have a dad. Mm hmm. And what I saw, regardless, whether it was black, Hispanic, white or Korean, because those are the four groups that were in our city. The one thing they had in common was lack of debt. Yeah. That's it.

00;36;28;08 - 00;36;46;15
J. Warner Wallace
Lack of debt. And some of these dads were living with them. But they weren't paying attention to them. Wow. Or, for example, in some of these, they were first generation immigrants who came in and started a business and were wildly successful and their families were wealthy, but they never even bothered to learn the English language. And their kids have no relationship with a dad.

00;36;46;25 - 00;37;05;18
J. Warner Wallace
They're like living in two different cultures in the same house. Hmm. That's the lack of dad also. Mm hmm. So lack of dad is not a it's an equal opportunity stupid thing, you know. So you have to be really careful with that. But it turns out that your kids are far less likely to stray permanently from you if you can take your relationship with you.

00;37;05;28 - 00;37;21;10
J. Warner Wallace
If you've done a good job in that and add to it the simple thing called information. Mm hmm. So what happens is most of the time is that, you know, people will have a good relationship with their kids, but they don't they can't answer their kids questions. So they'll say, get Jim's book. No, don't get my book. No one's going to read my book.

00;37;21;17 - 00;37;36;12
J. Warner Wallace
They don't know me. They know you. They want you to give them the answer. You master the information. And by the way, you're already doing this. We're here in Southern California. You know how this is. We got to have a sports team, get the Lakers and the Clippers. The Rams and the Chargers. You got, you know, the Kings and the Ducks.

00;37;36;12 - 00;37;55;24
J. Warner Wallace
You got the Angels and the Dodgers. We got everything here. But you probably are a fan of one of those teams and your kids are more likely to accept your fandom because you've already transmitted that really Because you have lots of data. You talk about it at the dinner table. They know the history of the team. They know who they're going to draft next year.

00;37;56;03 - 00;38;15;13
J. Warner Wallace
They know all the stats of the team. Like as you're geeked out on that, you share that with them. And so you now have passed on your fandom when in fact you could have passed on your faith in Christ if you had the same amount of information about that that you have about Rams. So it turns out that we have to be do a better job of passing on our fan, our fandom.

00;38;15;26 - 00;38;17;15
J. Warner Wallace
You know, our allegiances are.

00;38;17;17 - 00;38;18;15
Rusty George
So good.

00;38;18;15 - 00;38;38;29
J. Warner Wallace
You know, who is it we follow? Yeah, I follow. I got half theology in my podcast and half sports. Yeah. And so I'm following teams and I'm following the master. So which one of those two cases do I want to be a better case maker at? So if you just have a relationship that you've developed over the years, but you actually have fan ships and you know, you know that we're treating Jesus like like we're fans of his, that's not it.

00;38;39;00 - 00;38;44;06
J. Warner Wallace
I'm just saying that you already wasted. You're doing more for stuff that doesn't matter than you're willing to do for the stuff that does.

00;38;44;16 - 00;39;05;25
Rusty George
Right? Right. Oh, that's so good. Okay, So I wanted to ask you about this, and I think you've already tipped your hand a little bit with some of your answer on this, But the word deconstruction has become very popular. People of faith, deconstructing their faith, walking away. Is that a result of a parent that didn't have the right information?

00;39;06;15 - 00;39;20;07
Rusty George
Is that a result of a parent that only had information in a relationship, or is it a result of peer groups that people are in? You're probably going to say all of the above, but what do you see in here as to why we're so consumed with this idea of deconstructing our faith?

00;39;21;14 - 00;39;46;20
J. Warner Wallace
So deconstruction is the same for every group that holds any worldview. You know, I deconstructed my atheist and before I became a Christian. So it's not as though this is unique to Christianity. Anytime you make a serious change of worldview, you're probably deconstructing the one you held before you turned a corner. So it is deconstruction is no bigger a problem for us as Christians than it is for atheists, because I can tell you how I deconstructed my atheist.

00;39;46;20 - 00;40;05;02
J. Warner Wallace
Am I simply went back and I looked at all the claims of atheism about the nature of the universe, and I realized that these were not consistent, and people who deconstruct their Christian faith were also saying they're the same kind of thing. They're looking for those places in scripture. There's inconsistencies. But a lot of what drives us is not we.

00;40;05;05 - 00;40;14;20
J. Warner Wallace
There's three reasons why anyone shuns the truth, right, Sean? I used that word, Sean, because it helps you remember them. The first one is rational. Yeah, I'm using that word.

00;40;14;29 - 00;40;15;09
Rusty George
I love.

00;40;15;09 - 00;40;35;00
J. Warner Wallace
It. So. So. And that's what people will say. Well, I just deconstructed it to made no sense. The evidence would be whatever. But the other two are actually usually the tail that wagging the dog and that is emotional. They've had an experience that they have found a grievous in some way, and they decided this is not for me because if that's what these hypocrites are, I don't like these people.

00;40;35;00 - 00;40;57;03
J. Warner Wallace
And so that's what drives people or volitional. They just don't want it to be true because they're enjoying the life they've constructed for themselves. Every act of deconstruction is usually married to an act of construction. You've constructed something in your personal sexual preferences. Whatever in your life is that you now need to deconstruct your the other side because you can't enjoy one with the other.

00;40;58;16 - 00;41;20;02
J. Warner Wallace
This is why sin is it so much of of any kind of this Face it if you're going to deconstruct a one direction or the deconstructing your atheist to Christianity is going to bring, it's a harder life. Mm hmm. You won't argue it's a right life, but you've got to control your impulses now. Hmm. You got to delay your gratification.

00;41;20;14 - 00;41;35;10
J. Warner Wallace
You just can't be chasing everything you wanted to chase before. Mm hmm. Deconstructing to atheism from Christianity is the easier life because there are no rules now. Yeah. I'm never going to feel bad about what I'm doing. So the only courageous deconstruction goes in one direction.

00;41;35;24 - 00;41;36;00
Rusty George
Hmm.

00;41;36;15 - 00;41;54;23
J. Warner Wallace
The other is, to me, is just moral cowardice. It's that I don't have the enough conviction of my my beliefs, too, or the beliefs of God to hang with it. This is the cop talking, right? Mm hmm. The one thing that you you hate the most on the part of cops is cowardice. Yeah. And I think the same thing about believers.

00;41;54;23 - 00;42;01;02
J. Warner Wallace
We have to be courageous. And it turns out of the two ways you can deconstruct. Only one is courageous.

00;42;01;28 - 00;42;09;10
Rusty George
Hmm. I love that. All right, well, I want to I want to be gracious to your time because you've got a grandbaby on the way.

00;42;09;13 - 00;42;11;01
J. Warner Wallace
Yes. Any? Literally.

00;42;11;01 - 00;42;11;13
Rusty George
Any minute.

00;42;11;13 - 00;42;11;22
J. Warner Wallace
Now.

00;42;11;28 - 00;42;14;03
Rusty George
Yes So I'm waiting.

00;42;14;03 - 00;42;16;24
J. Warner Wallace
For the text. I keep on looking down to see if the baby's here.

00;42;17;06 - 00;42;37;08
Rusty George
Last question. And that is just out of pure curiosity. Our society has just gone crazy with true crime. We love true crime. From Netflix shows to Dateline, which I know you've been on several times. They've doubled down on murder. Everything's about an unsolved murder or perhaps even solved.

00;42;37;21 - 00;42;38;01
J. Warner Wallace
Yeah.

00;42;38;09 - 00;42;41;27
Rusty George
What does this say about our society that we're so obsessed with this?

00;42;43;04 - 00;43;02;19
J. Warner Wallace
Well, I think it's not just that we are so, like, I'd channel and I'm on I it channel a lot in real TV and all these different networks that feature our cases. And and what we noticed is that the vast majority of viewers in those channels are female. You know, women love true crime even more than men. And what is that about?

00;43;02;19 - 00;43;24;00
J. Warner Wallace
I think a lot of it is, again, it's you are created in the image of your creator. And so you have certain things you can't shake, not because you have been adapted over time with by evolution, but because these are innate properties of your of your soul as you created being that you just can't shake. And one of them is a sense that there are moral truths that aren't just a matter of opinion.

00;43;24;20 - 00;43;51;16
J. Warner Wallace
And that justice, moral justice is of high value to you. That's why the word justice can leverage all kinds of stupid movements that aren't even related to justice. Because you have such a visceral, visceral reaction to the notion of justice. Why is that? Because you are created in the image of the one God that holds truth and grace, justice and mercy in perfect balance, only one being in the universe has ever done that.

00;43;51;16 - 00;44;15;02
J. Warner Wallace
That's your way. And Jesus, when he came to planet Earth, the rest of us are unbalanced in one direction or the other. Hmm. But it's that sense of balancing justice and mercy, which is always so. It's so pointed in homicide investigation, because you have somebody with whom for whom justice needs to be applied and somebody for whom mercy needs to be shown in every case.

00;44;15;12 - 00;44;28;15
J. Warner Wallace
Mm hmm. And I think it's the because we were created in the image of a God who holds that in perfect balance, that we are interested in those fictional accounts, those stories, those dramas that really feature that balance. And that's why I think we are interested in true crime.

00;44;29;03 - 00;44;32;28
Rusty George
That's so interesting. Okay, buddy, where can people find you? What's your website?

00;44;33;25 - 00;44;47;13
J. Warner Wallace
We have a cold case Christianity Dcoms, where all of our stuff is up three days, three days a week. We post something there, but now we have a new website. We started about two years ago when we start working with these couples. It's called the Thin Blue Life dot com.

00;44;47;22 - 00;44;59;12
Rusty George
I love that. Okay. But it's so happy for you and the the grandchild on its way and so grateful for you and all you do for so many of us. So blessings to you. Hopefully we'll get to see you soon.

00;44;59;21 - 00;45;01;18
J. Warner Wallace
Yeah. Looking forward to seeing you in person soon.

00;45;01;24 - 00;45;03;01
Rusty George
That'd be great. Take care.

00;45;03;10 - 00;45;04;06
J. Warner Wallace
All right. Talk to you later.

00;45;05;03 - 00;45;23;25
Rusty George
Well, thank you so much for listening. Jim's just always such a blessing. Make you check out his website and pick up some of those resources, Especially for those of you that really want to share this with somebody else. Maybe a family member who's fallen away from their faith or has massive questions. You don't know how to answer. Everybody loves to hear from someone who's been on Dateline, and that's Jim Wallis.

00;45;24;06 - 00;45;45;16
Rusty George
Next week we have an interview I cannot wait to share with you. Over the past decade, I have had an administrative assistant who is absolutely amazing. She has been so gracious to not just take care of our ministry, but also represent our ministry so, so well. She is a pastor herself because of the amazing job she does in taking care of others.

00;45;45;26 - 00;46;05;24
Rusty George
And so many people ask me, Hey, what should I look for in an administrative assistant or an executive assistant? What do they actually provide for you? What we do? What do I ask them to do? Debbie, Robert is going to be with us next week to answer all of those questions. Well, thanks so much for listening. And if you haven't already, please subscribe to the podcast.

00;46;06;02 - 00;46;09;07
Rusty George
And we'll be back next week. Until then, keep it simple.

00;46;09;28 - 00;46;32;25
Intro/Outro
Take a moment and subscribe to the podcast so you get it delivered every week and subscribe to the Rusty George YouTube channel for more devotionals, messages and fun videos. Thank you for listening to Leading Simple.