The Rusty George Podcast

Rusty George: As a pastor or staff member of a church, it is common to experience compassion fatigue and find that you spend so much time caring for others you're not caring for yourself. Saga wants to help foster healthy churches by facilitating the support of the emotional, mental, and relational health of their leaders.

As a partner of Saga, pastors and staff can confidently and easily begin their journey by being uniquely matched to a therapist that best fits their needs. To learn more about a church partnership with Saga, go to sagacenter.org. That's S A G A center.org.

Intro/Outro: Welcome to Leading Simple with Rusty George. Our goal is to make following Jesus and leading others a bit more simple. Here's your host, Rusty George.

Rusty George: Hey, welcome to Leading Simple. My name is Rusty George. So great to have you with us today. I get to talk to a counselor. That's right. No, not my therapy session.

We're gonna talk to him about why he got into counseling, why people should listen to him, what they should look for in a particular counselor, and. Why they should even go. Maybe you've been thinking about, I should check out counseling, maybe even thinking about I've been, but it wasn't for me. It didn't work.

Well, I think this individual's gonna help you clarify the type of counseling you're looking for and the reasons you should go in the first place. Bjorn Jor has been helping people for many years. He himself has benefited from counseling and now he helps other people benefit from it. And he's recently opened up an organization called Saga, S A G A. It helps people find counselors and receive great counseling. I think you're gonna be blessed by what he has to say. If nothing else, he's got a really cool accent because he is Icelandic and that's the name. And we get into that here in just a moment. Well, thanks for tuning in. Here's my conversation with Bjorn Bjornsson.

Well, Bjorn Bjornsson, welcome to the podcast. I gotta ask you, uh, that name is that Icelandic, is that correct?

Bjorn Bjornsson: It's, yes. It's as Icelandic as it gets. Um, so what happens in our country is that we take our father's first name and we add son or daughter to it, depending on the gender. And so, uh, that's kind of a how, how that works in that culture. So I take my father's first name. So I have a son called Bjorn, and he's also Bjorn son, which actually works really well too, uh, being that we live in America, so it kind of looks right.

Rusty George: Well, it it's a, it's a mouthful. Uh, it is, but uh, it is, uh, it's fun to say because you don't often get to say Bjorn, ever since Bjorn Borg retired.

So, hey, tell us, tell us about yourself. Uh, obviously you've got some Icelandic background, but is that, did you grow up there and how'd you get here and what is it you're doing?

Bjorn Bjornsson: Yeah, I was born and raised in, in Iceland and, and kind of just to set the stage, Iceland is a, is in northern Europe. For those of you who don't know, it's a, it has a population of about 350,000 people and it's the size of Kentucky, so it's a little bit, the population was, it's a, is about Santa Cita, right.

Um, but this nation is very well educated. It's a very advanced, uh, society in many ways. And, uh, So the link, which is Icelandic, if any one of you is wondering obviously where the accent comes from. It definitely comes from Iceland. It's not Irish, and I think most of you can tell. Um, so if I tell you about myself, I was the second youngest, um, and a family of six.

I had two older sisters and three brothers. And growing up in Iceland, I, I really was immersed in a land of beauty and, and uniqueness. Um, I, I almost don't say quirkiness in a sense where my own extended family members could easily have been characters from classic literature of John Steinbeck and maybe Tennessee Williams even.

Uh, but my parents were both, uh, you know, born during the Great Depression, so they experienced their share of trauma growing up. Mm-hmm. Um, And they, I wanna say that they embodied in a really interesting way, uh, sort of a blend of brokenness and love. Um, with my father. He was a talented physician, uh, who enjoyed his liquor too much.

Hmm. And, um, my mother being a nurturing, charismatic, and very caring person with moments of a d d. Hmm. Um, so, So I was, I wanna say that my father was very absent. He was either working or he was enjoying his letter. So, mm, I was mainly raised by strong caring women. Um, and um, I had a strong-willed grandma who was about four foot eight, huge personality, and a mother and two old sisters.

And these people were great influencers in my life. Um, So as a teenager, I, I would describe myself as a kindhearted rebel who was reckless with my own life. Um, I developed very unhealthy, uh, coping mechanisms such as drinking and smoking and partying. And I started a rock band, by the way, called Monsters in a closet.

It, it, it was pretty awful, uh, to be honest. Um, Love that. So, so it wa it never really got out of the, out of the closet, meaning the garage. And I think that's a, that, that was a blessing for the world. Um, so, however, through a series of life-changing events, I, I turned my, uh, turned to the Lord at the age. Of 22, when I really became a radical for Jesus at that point.

Mm-hmm. And I wanna say before that time, I really could relate to the movie that came out the other day. Uh, CS Lewis's, uh, experience. It's a wonderful movie for those of you who haven't seen, it's called The Most Reluctant Convert. Right? And so, so basically what happens after I, I, I gave my life to the Lord.

Uh, In the, in the span of next 10, 10 years, I, I earned my, I I, I moved away from being this indecisive, uh, young person who had no idea what I wanted to do with my life to earning my masters in theology. I went on the missions field. I went actually both to the former Soviet Union, which was just about when the coup was.

This was in 1991 and Wow. And I also went to Mexico. Um, And, uh, and I got married to my American sweetheart, uh, Susanna. Um, and by the way, we met in 1991 at a Bible school, uh, in Lancaster, California. And this school was associated with a vineyard movement. Mm-hmm. And, uh, John Whimper was really, uh, big at that time.

And Brent Drew was up in Lancaster. He was a great. Influencer influenced me tremendously. Kind of moved Christianity from being, uh, in my mind a very boring experience in the Lutheran Church to being, oh my gosh, this is, this is the real thing. And so all this way, even though I had this kind of a.

Turbulent relationship with the Lutheran Church. I, I still became a Lutheran minister because if you're gonna influence Iceland, you have to become a Lutheran. Uh, that's just how that works. So I was assert in the Icelandic Lutheran Church for about 11 years, and it's a state church system for those of you don't know how that works in Scandinavia.

And then I moved to the US in 2009 and I became a licensed marriage family therapist in 2015. That year I opened my private practice and I founded Saga Mental Health and Relationship Centers at the end of 2019, really just before Covid hit. So the timing. It was quite interesting in that sense. Mm-hmm.

Rusty George: Tell us a little bit about Saga. Where'd the name come from? Um, tell us what it is that you all try to do and, and, uh, how that's been going.

Bjorn Bjornsson: Yeah, so Saga is, the name is, a lot of people think it's an acronym. Um, and, and, and it's not an acronym, it actually means a story or a narrative. And, uh, you know, it's saga is, um, we all have our stories.

People come into the therapy room with their story and, uh, and so. You know, and then we have the great story, uh, the greatest story I've ever been told that transforms us all and we all become a part of. So, saga has a multi-dimensional, uh, meaning really, uh, for, for us as therapist, for me as a believer.

And so it really represents that. But on an organizational, uh, in organizational terms, uh, saga is a faith-based. Parachurch nonprofit 5 0 1 network of licensed Christian relationships and mental health professionals dedicated to providing Christian-based care and support for churches. Christian organizations and individuals, so, Hmm.

And so we wanna come alongside, we wanna partner with the Christian community and help coordinate care with pastors and care pastors, uh, to support both congregants and those in need of care. Now I just also wanna say, uh, if you want me to call, so that's kind of what SAGA is, and it, it's sort of a, what it stands for, but there are many more elements to saga.

Uh, if you want me to elaborate a little bit more on that, you know, our Christian therapist, we, we, we kind of, uh, pre-screen them, you know, they, they

embrace

Bjorn Bjornsson: the Bible, uh, biblical worldview. And we have also, uh, adopted the, uh, as a organization, the American Association Christian Councilors Code of Ethics.

And we as we want to assure that the quality of our network by. By vetting each of our, uh, therapists that joins us. So we take this extremely seriously that we wanna become a trusted source mm-hmm. For our community.

Rusty George: That is a noble undertaking and an incredible effort that you guys are trying to pursue.

And I know you've got some other therapists along with you. Uh, I'm interested because you do work with a group of licensed and trained therapists. Do people have different approaches even with such a narrow focus that you guys are trying to do with Christian therapy? Um, do you find that. Uh, you know, I, I think about my job.

I'm a, I'm a pastor and when I preach, when I teach, I think I have a style. I know other people have different styles. Are there different styles of counseling or is it just more mainly personalities? I mean, kind of define for us different levels or styles of, of therapy.

Bjorn Bjornsson: Yeah, so, uh, great question. I, I would, so we kind of can say that there are some people that are Christian therapists and then you can say they are therapists who are Christians.

Okay. I would probably define myself more as a therapist who is a. Christian personally. Mm-hmm. I am, I work very much with, uh, you know, we don't, we don't impose our faith on people that come our way. Uh, there are some therapists that specialists just with the Christian population. I, I don't, I work with the Christian population.

I. Plus everybody else who wants to come in. Um, and so in that sense, we work with variety of modalities. Anything from evidence-based modalities like cognitive behavior therapy, uh, dialectical behavior therapy, which is very well known, and the field is great for crisis interventions and other things. Um, then we also, I, I would define myself, Uh, more as an existentialist.

Uh, I have a psychoanalytic background and I work with, um, relational psychoanalysis analysis, which really makes the relationship itself the agent of change. So we all have very different backgrounds and, um, different modalities and approaches how we work with clients. So it's, it's really not that narrow.

It's really open. Hmm. And so it's, I just think what we are discussing when we talk about, uh, basing our foundation on the Christian values and beliefs is that we are, we embrace the sort of at the moral, uh, dimension of, of, of, uh, the Christian worldview. And, uh, and as such, we do know that we live in a very, um, diverse culture, to say the least.

And, uh, I think. They have, I've been approached by Mandy asking me, where can I find a Christian counselor? And so from that perspective, it. Just begin to, uh, dawn on me that we really, we are really, there's a serious need for, for a Christian counselor. Hmm. Uh, for a, for a nation that is basis its roots on Christianity like the United States.

Rusty George: Let me ask you about that because I, I get that question a lot from people. Hey, where can I find a Christian counselor? We're all looking for somebody to help us, and we'd like them to have the same. Christian values that we have before they go nosing around in our mind. Um, what are some cautions you should give people about when looking for a Christian counselor or therapist?

You might wanna know this because like you said, they're not all the same. And there are some that are. Counselors that are also Christians and some people that are spousing to be Christian counselors, you know, what are the non-negotiables in your mind, the core things that you really wanna be looking for when it comes to a good Christian counselor to help you?

Bjorn Bjornsson: That's a gr that's a great question. Um, I would say it's, it's important to, first of all, In our code of ethics, it's very clear that we don't impose our beliefs or our values on our clients, but. It's also very obvious that we do influence each other as we work for long term. We are gonna influence the way we ask, the way we present ourselves, the way we talk.

All these things are gonna influence clients and the client is gonna influence the therapist. So the relationship is that, but I would say the non-negotiables, where when you are Christian looking for, you wanna know that, uh, your counselor honors your beliefs. Mm. And, uh, honors your ethics as a person.

And really morality. Um, I would say that's, that's really a foundational piece that, that your, your counselor, he also respects, uh, your faith. And, and, and I wanna say that we all come from different denominations with different beliefs. So, The counselor's not there to tell people, unlike pastors are more direct in their approach.

I would say that a therapist is much less so they, uh, try to empower by helping the client to, to sort of, um, find their way. Mm-hmm. And, and that, that would be the, the difference I wanna say in many ways. So it's. It's really empowering clients to figure out their path and mm-hmm. Seeing the way, and I, I think that's, if, if you find the therapist that you can trust, um, and you know that he will honor you and your church and where you come from, that's a really critical thing.

I also wanna say that for me, working or creating, uh, Uh, coordinate care around client, where I work with care pastors from their church, if that's a possibility. I think that's a wonderful, wonderful dimension that we can bring in, and that's what SAGA wants to do.

Rusty George: Mm-hmm. Well, I can tell you I love that. I, I remember back in the early nineties doing ministry and I happened to be at a pretty large church in Kentucky, and this is when we started actually to take counseling seriously.

And so basically the, uh, solution that all churches came up with was, well, let's just hire a counselor. And he quickly, he, you know, he or she became overwhelmed with the amount of appointments, and so it became, well, let's hire another one. Then it turned into, let's, let's open a counseling clinic. And really I have found now, and I think the churches have found that.

Partnering with a great group of Christian counselors goes a lot further than just trying to employ a bunch of Christian counselors. So I love what Saga does because you come alongside not just Christians, but also churches, to provide support and resources for people that are, that are hurting, that are in need, and, uh, sometimes that are even on staff at a church.

Uh, and, and definitely need, need therapy. Uh, let me ask you about the crisis we've been through. Much has been made over the last. Two or three years about the the mental health epidemic. And everybody wants to point out what caused it. I mean, COVID obviously had a part of it. Isolation, pandemic, uh, you know, the shutdown.

But then you have recession, you have economy, you have, um, social media getting out of hand. Uh, you have the sexual revolution not fulfilling people the way they thought it would. Uh, you have a divorce epidemic, you have all these different things going on. Oh, we didn't even get into politics and, and, uh, the election.

So, What do you think was kind of that lead domino or maybe one of the, the, the, the biggest boiling points when it comes to. Igniting this mental health epidemic we're in right now. Hey, let me interrupt this podcast for just a second to remind you, if you're not taking care of your mental health, nobody is.

Step up and go check out saga center.org to find out more. All right, back to our show.

Bjorn Bjornsson: Yeah, this is, uh, this is, uh, the mental health is such a multifaceted issue. It's, uh, and you're absolutely right. You're, you're, Really touching on some of the critical things that have been happening in our society. And I think with this increased stress and really what I've called, I, I feel like the social contract has been broken, uh, on so many different levels.

There is really no trust in this society. Hmm. And, uh, trust has been broken between individuals and even science, healthcare system, justice system, uh, I mean, the list goes on and on and on, and certainly poli. And, and the media and, and, and we have all these different things and people, people are gonna in are very much impacted by this tsunami.

And we, we, I definitely feel that when working with clients, I think also they're stressful, that increased stress. We know that stress increases or decreases, uh, serotonin level in the brain and therefore it becomes a source of depression for many. Hmm. Um, and I think also just living in this, uh, uh, this culture where there's this constant pressure to perform to, to succeed and, and to be productive, um, it, it absolutely takes tall.

Then we have. Like you said, lack of social support. Um, and this is where decline in social connection and the rise in social isolation, and there's a number out there. There's uh, I think a recent research, I think it was just from, just before Covid actually. Um, it showed that 58% of people, uh, suffer from loneliness, 58%.

Hmm. And if that was the number back then, I. Can imagine that's gone up significantly, and that's a really high number. So, um, all these things are very, uh, greatly, uh, contribute to depression, anxiety, and other mental health issues. Now, trauma is something that I work with very closely and, uh, You know, I, I, when I sit down with a client, the first thing I do is to map their trauma story.

I wanna understand their childhood. I wanna understand, uh, there was assessment that came out in 1995 called Adverse Childhood Experience. Very, very interesting. Uh, assessment. It's measured 10 things, uh, where people, what people experienced, uh, prior to the age of 18. Hmm. And what came out of this was that, uh, that people that, you know, were, they were measuring things like, did you grow up in a home with, you know, whether it was sexual, physical, emotional abuse, a person was incarcerated, uh, mental health issues were in the family, divorced, so different components, and those who scored four or more on this assessment.

I mean, they were so significantly more likely. Yeah. To commit suicide. To develop depression. And really at the end of the day, if those scored four or more their. A life expectancy was cut down by 20 years. Mm. So that's just, just to take a look at that. So I always look, take a look at that. So I think trauma has been incredibly on the rise.

I think we see that in relationship and how relationships breakdowns. Now of course, we know that the side effect of that is substance use and, and addictions. And, um, and then I wanna say that, uh, um, the, the stigma. And, uh, the lack of access to care has definitely been a part of it. Uh, so despite, you know, growing awareness, uh, and, and acceptance of mental health issues, there's still this significant stigma, uh, attach to seeking help.

And, uh, and so some people, obviously it's expensive to seek help oftentimes, and, and people. They don't prioritize their health, unfortunately. Mm-hmm. Uh, which is a very sad thing. Now I can continue changing societal norms. It's definitely one other thing. Um, and increased focus on indivi individualism, uh, is, is, has always been, uh, also a part of the problem.

And individualism is very, very strong in the United States. So comparing that to where I grew up in Iceland with a very strong sense of community. Yeah, I, I, uh, it was a very, um, interesting thing to enter into the society with mm-hmm. Where neighbors don't really talk to each other, um, right. So with obviously exceptions from that, some neighbors are wonderful.

Um, so these are some things that come to my mind.

Rusty George: Yeah, it's interesting. Um, you know, you talk about just this breakdown of trust. I think, man, that was such a great way to say that. We've lost that social construct of we trust first and, uh, you know, assume the best and those kind of things. Let's say somebody is acknowledging that and say, yeah, you're right.

I wanna be a person that trusts more. I wanna be a person that changes that, but, Doesn't mean the society is caught up with them. What are some steps a person can take to begin to trust again and to move beyond, uh, suspicion and assuming the worst and all those kind of things that would begin to help them, even if the people around them aren't doing the same thing?

Bjorn Bjornsson: Well, I think the first thing to acknowledge is to know what I can change, what I can change, and what I perhaps can change. So just know what

you

Bjorn Bjornsson: can do as, as a person, um, to do that. And, and I love the Serenity Prayer always in the concept of, of these things when it. Says, God grabbed me the serenity to accept the things that I cannot change, the courage to change the things that I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

And I think when we can begin to break, break this little . Prayer down and understand the deep philosophy of it. And we begin to build confidence in ourselves that we, there are certain things that we can do as people. Uh, well, I think faith is obviously the first thing we can go to. We, we, mm-hmm. We begin to pray and pray.

Um, not only. Impacts our society greatly, but it's, it's sort of about the greater work to building trust. So I, I wanna say that at the end of the day, we trust in God and we trust his guidance and his help. And I think as much as we begin to foster these things, they, and we begin to focus on gratitude and, uh, thankfulness for what we have.

And, um, That, that becomes a source of, I think, developing trust, um, and beginning to see life through the lens of. Positivity and possibilities in not seeing that glass half empty like we tend to do because as human beings we tend to have negative bias. We, we lean towards the negative because we are creatures of survival.

And in that sense, I think it's very, it comes very natural to us not to trust. So when we begin to put our focus, pay attention to, because what we pay attention to Rusty is, is that's gonna shape us at the end of the day. Mm-hmm. I, I agree.

Rusty George: I don't know if that helps, but No, it definitely does. And I'm just sitting here thinking, you know, I think all of us who have been to counseling, we walk in there and think I'm gonna tell them something they've never heard before.

And the reality is we all end up sounding like the patient you just had the last hour because we've got a lot of the same issues. Don't you think?

Bjorn Bjornsson: We do and we don't. I, I think when I approach a person in the therapy room, I always, I, I feel so honored because I feel like somebody just invited me into their life and into the story.

Mm-hmm. And, uh, that is not something that I take for granted. Mm-hmm. And, uh, that is, That is a holy moment. Really. It is. It's a sacred moment to be invited and to be allowed to impact hopefully that life with, with, uh, with whatever I can, uh, whether it's through prayers or through, uh, supporting them. Um, with interventions or, or suggestions or whatever that, that might be, um, that, that, that is the moment that I love the most is really to get to know people and how incredible people are at the end of the day.

Rusty George: If there's somebody out there listening and they're thinking, I really probably should talk to somebody, um, what would you say to them? Encourage them along to make that decision.

Bjorn Bjornsson: Yeah, I think, uh, first of all, it's a very courageous step to actually, when you, when you, when you

make

Bjorn Bjornsson: that choice to, to seek help.

Mm-hmm. Um, it takes courage. Um, and that's kind of aligns with what I was saying about the Serenity prayer. Give me courage to change the things that I can. I think that's where that comes in. It's also about, I, I think you. When you go and you're thinking about it, you need to be honest to yourself, um, that you actually might need help.

And, um, and I think also when you're thinking about the therapeutic process, um, it's important to keep in mind that this is

a

Bjorn Bjornsson: collaborative effort. I've said that the client is the expert, not, not, not the therapist. Mm. Uh, the client is the expert in his life and you're really just inviting the therapist in.

But I, I, I also wanna. Recommend something. And that is this. I, and I've told, many people have called me. I said, why don't you come in for consultation? Why don't you just come here, uh, and we'll have, there's no other, there's nothing else that you just come in here. You have a chance to get to know me, you.

Um, if you feel good in my presence, then we can work with that. Uh, you can ask about my background, my values, uh, My modality. And I think if you just take that first step to see that, you know, the therapist doesn't bite, then he's, he's a safe, he's a relatively safe person. Um, and that I actually think I can trust this person.

I think that's a really, Important step. Um hmm. So I encourage people to just kind of a go a bit shopping if you will. You, if you like, first of all, go on on the website, look for a therapist, and then you know, why don't you decide for consultation and with no other commitments.

Rusty George: I. Yeah, I think back to, you know, 20, 30 years ago, the idea of going to a, a counselor was an admission of failure or you have some kind, some kind of problem wrong with you.

Something wrong with you. I'm, I'm from the Midwest, so we never talked about these kind of things, but, uh, boy. I, I have benefited so much from counseling and my, uh, family has, uh, immensely, uh, we're big, uh, proponents of it and supporters of it because it allows somebody with much more training and a bird's eye perspective to, uh, kind of help you navigate through some of the.

The difficulties of your past and, and present. Uh, I mean, certainly you have seen tremendous success stories of people that once thought, there's nothing I can get out of this to, boy, I can't imagine my life without it.

Bjorn Bjornsson: For sure. Absolutely. Um, I, I go so far to think that I don't really know how people do it without.

Going to therapy and, and really having a person in your corner that supports you, um, from this professional perspective and gives you, uh, meaningful feedback about life and mm-hmm. And it's a, it's a space of re it's a, it's a space of reflection and, and, um, You trust that person. Um, mm-hmm. So, I, I, I completely agree with you and I, I really appreciate, uh, hearing you say that I actually think that people in ministry, um, they should all be going to counseling, I would say at least 10 sessions a year, just to kind of like get this, um, perspective.

Um, you know, because. Ministers and people in, in, in, in, in ministry pastors. I mean, the influence that, uh, we have in, in and, and the impact we have on our community is incredible on other people. Mm-hmm. And, uh, we constantly have to be, uh, On high alert to make sure that we are doing things right. So there's, there's so much we are trying to live up to and there's so much expectation.

And I think the, the sec I was just thinking about this the other day, the really, the, the, the loneliest person in, in the congregation is oftentimes the pastor. Mm-hmm. Uh, Because it's, it's, it's expectations of him always being, giving of himself and, and showing on the one or two sides of himself that's really hard for pastors and it's a very fine path and you know this much, much better than I do.

Mm-hmm. A fine path to, to, to kind of become, Really human, you know? And, and, and you know, I have all these things and, and I have heard, I hope you don't mind me sharing this, but I've heard some of your preaching and I love how you have been able to talk openly about some of those things. Mm. Uh, that, that we all are struggling with, like anxiety and, and, and other things.

Mental health concerns that impact our society and us all as individuals. Wow. So thank

Rusty George: you for that. I appreciate you saying that. I've just been so impacted by counseling and I've seen its effect not just in my life, but in our parishioners lives as well. And I think for anybody, especially in ministry or anybody in any level of leadership, what tends to happen is if you are the person people talk to when they're hurting, eventually you become or you develop what, uh, I've heard some therapists refer to as vicarious trauma.

Where you kind of pick up the, the, the debris from others and you carry that with you, and it starts to really weigh on you after a period of time. So the ability to sit down and unpack that with somebody is, is really helpful. Don't you think?

Bjorn Bjornsson: Oh, it's, it's incredibly, I mean, I can only just go back to my own ministry years, uh, as a pastor I was mm-hmm.

I mean, the first thing that I experienced was, was all kinds of, Uh, experience of young people dying and coming into the situations and experiencing the secondary trauma from these situations. Having children myself and, and having your neighbor who was grieving and because of, mm-hmm. Uh, that, that is incredible.

And I think that's a big part of pastoral burnout. Mm-hmm. Because I think that's where, where that comes in. Um, now burnout is a very complex, uh, topic. It's, it's a, it's a multilayer too. Yes. Um, and it's relatively new diagnosis on that one. And we are learning so much. Um, I think that goes back into our childhood in many ways.

Mm-hmm. Our early traumas impact our burnout, oftentimes later in life. In how we cope. But that's a little side note, but I agree. Mm-hmm. The, the secondhand trauma that we experience is significant. Mm-hmm.

Rusty George: Well, this has been very enlightening and fantastic and the first time I've ever sat down and talked to an Icelander.

So, uh, it's a joy for me as well. Uh, let me just, uh, ask, you know, how can people get, uh, in touch with you and how can they find out more about saga?

Bjorn Bjornsson: Yeah, so Saga, we have a website, saga center.org. Uh, people can go on our website and they can see a list of all the, uh, partner clinicians we have. We have right now around 40, um, Christian, uh, therapists or therapists who are Christian in our network.

Mm. Um, we also partner with Christian organizations, just so you know that, that's a side note. That's one way to get, we have a, um, care coordinator who answers our phone. Um, And our phone number is (661) 513-4770. Um, so that would be the most obvious ways to get hold of us. Um, other than that, I, I think through your church community, that's another thing we obviously partner with, uh, churches, uh, like your life church, and, uh, I think, uh, Seeking, uh, your pastors and, uh, getting information from, uh, the churches that we partner with is a, is a great way to do it too.

But again, saga center.org, that would be the, the way to go. Hmm.

Rusty George: That's fantastic. Well, Bjorn, thank you so much for your time, your support of the podcast and for how you've helped out so many people in our community. And we are praying for, uh, many more great things for saga and for you.

Bjorn Bjornsson: I'll back at you, pastor Rusty.

I know that you have helped many. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Rusty George: Well, that was such great information from Bjorn, and if you have not yet checked out his website, make sure that you do and find a counselor near you or where you can receive some counseling. Such a valuable piece of my life, and hopefully it will be for yours as well.

Uh, as always, we're grateful for our sponsor. We're thankful for our subscribers. And thank you to you for listening to this conversation. We invite you to subscribe to this podcast if you haven't already. Next week my conversation will be with an. Executive pastor, whose name is Jim Sheldon. He didn't start off being in ministry, but he eventually got into it and now he's working as not only a pastor, but an executive pastor, a leader, a police chaplain.

He's got a great story and he's also a Chicago Bears fan, so that tells you he's long suffering. So we're gonna talk to Jim Sheldon, hear what he has to say about what it means to be an executive pastor, and how you can look for one, how you can be one, how you can find one. I think you're gonna love my conversation with him next week.

Thanks for listening today, and as always, keep it simple.

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