The Rusty George Podcast

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Rusty George
As a pastor or staff member of a church, it is common to experience compassion fatigue and find that you spend so much time caring for others, you're not caring for yourself. Saga wants to help foster healthy churches by facilitating the support of the emotional, mental and relational health of their leaders. As a partner of Saga, pastors and staff can confidently and easily begin their journey by being uniquely matched to a therapist that best fits their needs.

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Rusty George
To learn more about our church partnership with Saga, go to sagacenter.org. That's Saga Center dot org.

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Intro/Outro
Welcome to Leading Simple with Rusty George. Our goal is to make following Jesus and leading others a bit more simple. Here's your host, Rusty George.

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Rusty George
Hey, welcome to episode 256. My name is Rusty George, and today I've got a special treat for you. Over the past five years, I've had a chance to get to know Lane Jones, who is an author, a speaker. But he's probably better known for the guy who made Andy Stanley who he is today. Now, he would like me to say that, but behind every great leader is a group of other leaders that make them better.

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Rusty George
And Lane happens to be one of those. He helped pioneer and launch North Point Church. He also helped lead and launch Northpoint Ministries, helps thousands of churches be able to be resourced and to be helped and encouraged throughout the entire United States. Lane also hosts a podcast with Andy Stanley on a monthly basis where there are millions of people that listen to that, as well as their weekly broadcasts of their church service online and also in many TV markets following Saturday Night Live.

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Rusty George
Lane is transitioning into a different role, and he sat down with me to reflect on what has happened in the meteoric rise of Northpoint and what he learned from leading from the second chair. Well, I want to thank our friends at Saga Counseling for their support today and throughout this time they have been incredible friends of ours. They've helped out a lot of people in need.

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Rusty George
And if you are interested in learning more about receiving some therapy or some counseling, go to sagacounseling.com. Saga Counseling Icon therapy is not the voodoo stuff that a lot of us were taught growing up. Therapy is not that bizarre subject you're not allowed to talk about. It is the reality of how we help ourselves mentally and spiritually.

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Rusty George
Make sure you check out Saga Counseling dot com. Okay. Well, here's my conversation with Lane Jones. Lane Jones, thank you so much for joining the podcast. For our listeners that don't know who you are, tell us a little bit about yourself.

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Lane Jones
Absolutely. Well, first of all, Rusty, it's great to be with you guys and to be on the podcast. And I guess the the reason that I'm on here is I'm connected with Northpoint Ministries, North Point Community Church here in beautiful Alpharetta, Georgia, and know you through our irresistible church network. So that's how we've gotten to know each other over the years and excited about that a little bit about me, I guess, the important things.

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Lane Jones
I've been married to Tracy 38 years this summer. We have three grown kids. Our fifth and sixth grandchildren are on the way. And so those are those are the important things. But yeah, born and raised here in Atlanta. So that makes me a unique, unique creature because there are very few people my age who actually are from Atlanta who are still in Atlanta.

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Lane Jones
Everybody here is from somewhere else. But it's it's a it's a great place to be. But yeah, I'm currently the multi-site director for North Point Ministries, which means oversee our eight local campuses as well as our our partner network. And and by oversea that means I get to meet with the guys who really run the thing, but some great, great leaders who are involved with that.

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Lane Jones
But that's my current assignment. But I've been a part of North Point since the beginning, so I started 27 years ago this summer. Ah, this fall. So yeah, done a little bit of everything in between. But so anyway, that's sort of that, that's the top sheet.

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Rusty George
That's great. Well I got to ask you about this Atlanta thing. I didn't realize people actually leave there. I thought everybody who's from that area just stays there. That's why the the town is growing so rapidly. Because, I mean, I think the joke well, I guess the joke is Atlanta is eventually going to take over the entire state.

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Rusty George
It just keeps getting bigger and bigger. So what's the draw there? Well, a lot of people want to live in Atlanta.

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Lane Jones
Well, let me just say that when I was in high school, there were less than a million people in Atlanta. Now there's somewhere almost two 7 million. And it's not because we all had a bunch of kids. I'm just saying most everybody in Atlanta are from somewhere else. And so they've actually quite a few people showing up from your neck of the woods right now.

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Lane Jones
Oh, so yeah, absolutely. So we're maybe on their way to Florida. But yeah, there are a lot of people from from all over. But, you know, it's a great place to be if you like humidity, especially if you like to to wear your weather. This is the place to be.

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Rusty George
Oh, well, it's the home of Chick-Fil-A, Coca-Cola, Home Depot, is that right?

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Lane Jones
That's right. Yeah. And not too far from the University of Georgia Bulldogs. Two times national champions.

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Rusty George
Oh, I knew you'd bring it up. So?

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Lane Jones
So, yeah. So had the Yeah. Got to represent.

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Rusty George
Was the was the first championship more exciting than the second or was it just really sweet to repeat.

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Lane Jones
Probably both. But yeah, the first one was, was sweeter because the previous one before that was actually when I was a student at the University of Georgia. So when they say it's been 40 years, I was there that, that, that 40 years ago. So I remembered the first one. So you had the the, the, the, the one two years ago was probably the sweetest because it took so long to come though.

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Rusty George
Right. Yeah. And it was was it over Alabama?

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Lane Jones
Yes, it was. I mean, that only made it ten times sweeter. But yes, it was high.

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Rusty George
I would think so. Yeah. Beating up on TCU just didn't seem like it was even fare so well. Well, good. Good for you. We always venture into sports at some point on the podcast. So now now we've done that. So good luck to you next year. Okay. So you're you have this unique role where you serve at a very large and highly influential church, influential church in the world, specifically in America.

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Rusty George
But you've been there from the days when nobody knew what it was. You were there from the beginning days when you guys started kind of as an offshoot from First Baptist down there. Did you work at First Baptist with Andy under Charles?

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Lane Jones
I did. I was on staff there for ten years prior to starting work once. That's actually where I started my ministry. And really the only two only two churches I've ever worked at, I, I, you know, had a brief sojourn when I was in seminary where I basically turned lights on and off at a church in Dallas. But no ministry role.

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Lane Jones
But but yeah, no, my ministry has been at either First Baptist Atlanta or here at North Point.

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Rusty George
Tell me about the days at First Baptist. These were in the heyday of Charles Stanley. Dr. Charles Stanley.

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Lane Jones
Yeah. Dr. Charles.

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Rusty George
Stanley. Incredible communicator, Leader. Teacher. You know what? What do you still remember about your days with with Dr. Stanley?

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Lane Jones
Oh, well, I mean, honestly, I. I know I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing today if it weren't for him. I'm not. I'm not shortchanging the role of the Holy Spirit and God's calling and providence and all that. But I know he's had God used to to draw me into ministry. And really, in a lot of ways back to Christ.

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Lane Jones
You know, I began to I was saved at an early age, as a lot of us were, but then, you know, got into high school and first couple of years of college and, you know, thought, well, I have that whole thing figured out. And then, as is the case with a lot of us, we realize we don't really have life figured out, began to look for some answers.

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Lane Jones
And you know, God led me to First Baptist and began to get involved there. And later in my college career and then just post college. And honestly, it was his teaching. And, you know, I think just the clarity and the the the certitude that he taught with that was was both refreshing and challenging and and really set the course for my life, you know, as a as a follower, as a man, as a husband.

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Lane Jones
His father's a lot of you know, he just spoke a ton into my life. And so, yeah, I had no interest at all in my early, you know, high school, early college career going into ministry, didn't even enter my mind. But when I saw there, the, you know, not just what God was up to, but that, you know, people were committed to doing it with excellence and doing, you know, it was like ministry became a a role.

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Lane Jones
I mean, it became a career, as you know, unfolded out in front of me. And so, yeah, I I'd say quite often I, I, oh, so very much, you know, to, to him and, and I think we would all say, you know, we all stand on his shoulders to a certain degree.

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Rusty George
At some point during your working there at First Baptist you you meet or start working with Andy. Were you guys working together? Were you in his youth ministry? How does how does how is the connection there?

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Lane Jones
Yeah, initially we didn't work together. We actually started on staff the same month as the summer of to get the summer of 85. And he had just finished and I had just come on staff and, and you know, so I had known of and because he actually dated a friend of mine in high school but we didn't really know each other but then he started well, we called Good Stuff, which was the the name of the student ministry, and it was just exciting, you know, it was sort of that, you know, where things were really happening there at First Baptist.

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Lane Jones
So started volunteering over there. And he and I actually led a senior high school Sunday school class together and where we pulled together some what we thought were some of the best and brightest seniors. And we did a Sunday school class specifically for them and actually was part of the process God used to. I had been involved more on the administration side and sort of the the pastoral administration track and used to, you know, God use that and some other discipleship stuff I was doing to really kind of be like, no, I think, you know, I think you want to step over into the ministry where a little bit more and actually that's what I

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Lane Jones
left for about eight months to go to seminary and came back and then started working on our discipleship ministry. And then about that time is when we started what became First Baptist North, which was if you've read, if you've read the first two chapters of Deep and Wide, you've heard the soap opera story, but a group of us went out and started First Baptist North and, you know, just had a great time trying some new things and and really sort of doing some things and trying some things that became the the incubator to a certain extent for a lot of the things that we did here at that North point, following that.

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Lane Jones
So that was, I guess early 1992, 93, somewhere in there and there I did work directly for Andy and then working for him ever since.

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Rusty George
He just can't get away, can't, you.

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Lane Jones
Know, can't get rid of that. I know a good thing when I got it.

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Rusty George
Of course. Oh, okay. So I'd love to know just a little bit of the progression. Three decades of North Point, the early days. I mean, that's just got to be the wild and crazy time of setting up to your dad. You were leading worship. You were wearing a suit.

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Lane Jones
That's right.

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Rusty George
I've heard the stories, seen the pictures. What were the early days like in that first decade of doing Church together and Logic North Point?

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Lane Jones
Yeah, well, as you mentioned, I mean, the fact that I was the worship leader will tell you that everybody did whatever they could do. I mean, you know, and it was like there were there were six of us and it was kind of like, if you could do it, that was, you know, that was your job. And even if you couldn't do it, it became your job.

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Lane Jones
I remember it was just it was in that period of time, really, that the Internet became, you know, sort of like not just a strange thing that nerds did. It was kind of like, Oh, we need to post, you know, our our service times on the Internet. And so, like everybody kind of looked around and was like, All right, I'll be the webmaster.

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Lane Jones
So I went to like OfficeMax and bought one of those little boxes, you know, create a website, created a website. So you just it literally was whatever you could do, you did. And and honestly, Rusty, it was a blast. I mean, we we had seen some success at First Baptist North and, you know, the church had grown and what we were trying had grown.

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Lane Jones
And in by trying, I just thought we were trying some some nontraditional worship, some, you know, different things. You know, remember, people used to do drama and church and those kind of things. We were trying that. So I mean, that's how long ago this was Now, like things now that we were like, Wow, let's try that. We'd be like, Oh, gosh, I can't even believe we did that.

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Rusty George
But Right.

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Lane Jones
But because as we had seen that, I think there was always something inside of us that thought, you know, what? If God used us to do that once, I think, you know, there's a good chance he'll use us to do that again. And so it wasn't a matter of of, you know, what do we think this thing can work?

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Lane Jones
It was do we, you know, you know, how how does you know, for lack of a better term, how's God going to do it this time? Because, you know, we knew we had a big you know, we had a lot of wind at our back. I'll just say that through First Baptist that went in through the, you know, the people there.

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Lane Jones
So I don't want to say the early days, you know, didn't have moments of, you know, hey, you know, things don't turn around. Well, you know, this thing could go the other way. I mean, we had those moments where I mean, we used to joke about, you know, the male would come in and, you know, we would kind of like put the stack of male in front of somebody.

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Lane Jones
And, you know, they opened a big check. It was like, oh, you open the rest of them because, you know, you got handed. So I think there was a time where it was like, wow, we you know, we've got to prove this. You know, we've got to see, you know, this thing actually pan out. But at the same time, I think we always trusted that God had called us to do what we were doing and that that, as I said, we had seen him do it before and we we trusted that he would do it again.

00;15;59;03 - 00;16;21;23
Lane Jones
But that was really and the idea of a church, a local church that would impact its community. What what God has done since then, I mean, we say all the time he he blew past our vision, you know, in about the fifth, sixth, seventh year. And since then, we've kind of been holding on and just seeing what he was going to do next.

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Lane Jones
So, you know, So yeah, so in some ways, those were just amazingly innovative, but also just fun years of very hard work. Lots to do, like you said, set up, tear down those of you who are listening, who are in that season, you know, you wouldn't wish it on anybody. But once it's done and you look back on it, you know you're going to miss part of it and you'll always remember the the people who were in the trenches with you doing that.

00;16;50;18 - 00;17;19;25
Lane Jones
And we had some amazing people who doing that. We had some people that are the thing that we appreciate so much now that we are in our sixties and, you know, sort of getting toward that, that, you know, older generation is there were people who were our age now back then who wrote some incredibly large checks and handed over to a bunch of 30 somethings who had an idea and had a thought that, you know, this could work and we could have a different kind of church.

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Lane Jones
And they got behind it. And the the, you know, bittersweet part of that is we're we're in the season now of of losing some of them. And you know, that's that's tough but it's also you know, there's that sweet reward of knowing that they're experiencing some rewards for the faithfulness that they showed 30 years ago. And so it's yeah, it's it's a special time to look back on.

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Lane Jones
But yeah, it was it was crazy, too. It was it was holding on.

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Rusty George
You know, for for all of us who have been through something like that, maybe not at the scale of North Point, but just the start up stage, the movie theater or the high school stage, and then you get into a building and then things really take off. Well, there comes that moment where it's no longer the little engine that could it's no longer this, Hey, this has got to be okay.

00;18;14;08 - 00;18;31;23
Rusty George
Let's give it the college try. It's oh, goodness. We've got to act like grown ups. Now. This is a big time organization and there's people that are actually kind of trusting us with their marriage or their kids or. Right. And then you kind of go through these growing pains. There's a growing pains. Have you got to add a lot of staff?

00;18;31;23 - 00;18;50;13
Rusty George
You've got to maybe you've outgrown some staff and maybe some people that got you there can't get you to the next level. Yeah. How did you guys manage that? I'm sure there were some wins and losses, but you know, what did you learn along the way? What were some of the difficult times? How did you how did you get through some of the growing pains in the early days of North Point?

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Lane Jones
Yeah, I think you're exactly right. I think that that every everybody is part of anything that grows, you know, experiences the seasons. I think I think one of the things that Andy did, one of the many things, but one of the things specifically that helped in that particular process is that he always he always kept us focused on then, not now.

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Lane Jones
It's like we're not focused on now. We're focused on then where are we headed? What do we need to do to get there and what is life need to look like now to to to make sure we're ready for that? And so one of our original things that we talked about in some of our our ministry principals act like then is now just act like then is now.

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Lane Jones
It actually was it was going to be part of the the the book that we did just on you know the principles of ministry. But yeah, we wanted to get down to seven. So it didn't make the cut but we, we honestly just kept focusing on now this is, this isn't about how we do things now. This is about what do we need to do now to be ready for them.

00;20;04;03 - 00;20;27;24
Lane Jones
And yeah, I remember two or three really difficult conversations both on that I've had to have and that other people had to have work. Someone, you know, the job just outgrew them and you know, the, the easy thing that the now thing to do is to let them stay in that role, their role, They started it to their ministry, you know, And so we're just going to stick with now.

00;20;27;24 - 00;20;49;09
Lane Jones
But when you recognize that where we're headed as an organization is going to require a change of position, you know, you have to make that. You have to make that step. And I will say that every person without exception, understood that and said, you know, I don't want to be the thing that holds back what God is doing here.

00;20;49;09 - 00;21;04;06
Lane Jones
So, you know, they either moved into a different role or they stepped aside or they went on to do something different. But it was it was always connected to vision. It was always connected to where God was taking us, not where we have been or where we were.

00;21;04;27 - 00;21;22;15
Rusty George
But that's such a gift that you were given there. This whole idea of staff members being willing to kind of be open handed and say, You know what, I only hold this job for a while, right? Was that something you kind of started the whole effort with, Hey, we're going to start this saying we might not hold it forever.

00;21;22;15 - 00;21;37;05
Rusty George
Let's keep our hands open. I hear, you know, people from North Point talk about the open handed policy. A lot of just being open to whatever God does. But yeah, it seems like that that's a great idea when you get started. But once you develop your own little kingdom of ministry, you think, Hey, don't take this from me.

00;21;37;05 - 00;21;38;00
Rusty George
I built this thing.

00;21;38;17 - 00;22;07;00
Lane Jones
Right? Yeah. And I, you know, I don't want to say that, that it's, you know, it always goes where, you know, people are coming in saying, you know, I've noticed that I'm holding us back. You know, I mean, it's it's not it's not always that. But yeah, I would say it has been such a part of our culture and, you know, so much a part of our our staff behaviors and what we value as a staff that that that it's it's you know, it's not intuitive.

00;22;07;00 - 00;22;28;03
Lane Jones
It doesn't come second nature, but it is so valued that that when it's identified and when you know when when you have that conversation where it's like, hey, this is what we need to do for the good of the organization or for the future or for whatever. You know, the the first response quite often is, hey, I'm going to be open handed with this.

00;22;28;03 - 00;22;46;24
Lane Jones
I'm going to you know, if this is where we think we need to go now, I may make my case. I may be like, well, let me tell you why. I don't think it's where we need to go. Or let me tell you why. I think, you know, it's like but, you know, at the end of the day, if, you know, the conversation is made, I just saw it happen in a meeting the other day where, you know, we needed to move something on the calendar.

00;22;46;24 - 00;23;03;21
Lane Jones
And it was like, oh, this is going to be a lot of work for a particular area. But, you know, and they even, you know, use the phrases like, look, we're going to be open handed, we're going to do this. We just want you to know what it's going to take from us to make this happen. But once we do that, if the organization says we need to make this change, we'll make it work.

00;23;03;26 - 00;23;24;05
Lane Jones
And so I think it's been modeled enough. And and it's just so much a part of the culture from day one that, yeah, you know, it's an easy decision to make. It's tough to act out and to act on. You know, it's hard work at times, but, you know, when that's your posture, it becomes second nature.

00;23;24;18 - 00;23;47;10
Rusty George
There was a moment when you guys began to develop a lot of notoriety. Books are being written by you, Conferences are happening. People are visiting. I'm sure that you had that that moment where the building's done and now you see all these these pastors walking around in the lobby that's on Sunday taking pictures and bringing their staff to visit.

00;23;47;10 - 00;24;14;15
Rusty George
And I mean, I did it. So, yeah, you got these you got all these conferences going on and all these things. And then now you're not just helping in one church, you're helping many churches. Did that feel like a greater weight? Is that where Northpoint Ministries kind of came about? Is that, you know, was there a there was there a meeting that you remember where you guys decided, well, listen, we got to we got to recognize that we're helping more than just us.

00;24;14;15 - 00;24;17;28
Rusty George
Let's lean into it rather than lean away from it.

00;24;17;28 - 00;24;43;27
Lane Jones
Yes. But it also I think at our core, we and I think you've heard, you know, if you listen to Andy enough, especially in conference settings, I mean, he will still say at heart, I'm still a local pastor. I mean, I still, you know, the things that drive my decision making and my priorities and what I do, you know, like first I'm a husband and a father and then I'm a local pastor.

00;24;43;27 - 00;25;10;00
Lane Jones
So I'm going to always prioritize my, you know, my church and my my churches. So I think as our profile began to go up and people began to be like, hey, you know, what can we learn? Can you do this? Can you do that? You know, we we wrestled through that. And there were churches who who were very well known for conferencing and for for adding to the Capital C church.

00;25;10;00 - 00;25;30;09
Lane Jones
And so we we got so much out of that we didn't want to be like, well, that's not our role. We're going to you know, we're going to remain close handed. When it comes to that. We definitely wanted to be open handed, but we felt like we did it with the mindset of whatever we can do to be to make our churches more effective.

00;25;30;09 - 00;26;00;16
Lane Jones
We want to be able to share that with as many people as we can, but we're not out to create things to help, you know, just to be known as that church that helps other other churches or that somehow becomes the notoriety becomes, you know, being the church that other churches go to. We wanted to prioritize our local churches knowing that the more effective we were at doing what we were doing, the more helpful it would be, you know, to the Capital C Church and to to everyone else.

00;26;00;16 - 00;26;28;01
Lane Jones
So as Andy said many times, it drive our conference or anything else, just like we you know, we didn't really feel like we had the responsibility to fill up anybody else's cup. Our responsibility was to empty ours. And so as we learned and as we grew and as we had anything to offer, we tried to offer it and and pour it out and find the best ways to to export that out to the to, you know, other churches and other leaders such as yourself.

00;26;28;13 - 00;26;50;08
Lane Jones
But it always came from a position of does this make us more effective? Does this make us stronger? Does this make us better at, you know, you know, encouraging people and equipping people to follow Jesus? And so, you know, if it did, then we did it. If it didn't, then we didn't, which is one of the reasons why we we only do drive every other year.

00;26;51;19 - 00;27;08;20
Lane Jones
I think one year we were off for three years because we were actually it came to the place where it was a drive year and we were opening a new campus and we sat down and had a discussion. It was like, Hey, ordinarily we would do drive this year, but we're opening on that church. You know, what do we think we should do?

00;27;08;20 - 00;27;36;02
Lane Jones
And we made a decision organizationally that opening Gwinnett Church, well, should be the priority. And whatever margin drive was going to take, that wasn't worth risking opening that church. Well, so, you know, we skipped a year. So but we also feel like it takes about two years for us to to learn enough stuff that we feel like, you know, we can say, hey, come on, we've got something else to share or something else to to maybe teach.

00;27;36;18 - 00;27;57;24
Rusty George
Hey, let me interrupt this podcast for just a second. To remind you, if you're not taking care of your mental health, nobody is. Step up and go check out Saga Center, Dawg to find out more. All right. Back to our show. I want to ask you about kind of that, the next stage of of North Point, because you're learning all these things, you're growing.

00;27;57;24 - 00;28;25;13
Rusty George
You add the the second auditorium, which we all showed up to look at the Siamese auditorium, as you call them. Yeah. But then you know comes this idea to do multi site which you guys do a little bit differently. There's a lot of autonomy they do show video but they also teach it's a little bit different than maybe a traditional multi site like a life church right having done multi site for several years now and having gone through the.

00;28;25;13 - 00;28;45;03
Rusty George
All right, we did it. It was great. It was great. And then all those guys left to go do their own thing. And now we're doing it again and again and again. What what looking back, do you think? Oh, I wish we would have known this or done this. That would have helped us a lot because there are a lot of churches that are kind of like just getting into the multi-site world, Right.

00;28;45;03 - 00;28;54;22
Rusty George
And maybe they missed maybe they missed the wave altogether. But what would you say, looking back that, you know, boy, if I had to do it again, I'd make sure I did this and make sure I didn't do this.

00;28;55;04 - 00;29;27;01
Lane Jones
Yeah. Yeah. I, I think to me, the the a bullet that we dodged to a certain degree in that that we had no other choice. Is that why you do multi-site is is in some ways more important than how you do Multi-Site Not not always but but I always tell guys if you're doing if you're going multi-site to create momentum instead of to help you manage momentum, you're you know, it's like having a child to save your marriage.

00;29;27;01 - 00;29;47;25
Lane Jones
I mean, it is a bad decision because you are taking something that's already not working and you are about to exponentially complicated by trying to do it somewhere else at the same time. So wow. So, you know, I think and I've met some people, like I just feel like if we do multi-site, that's going to create some synergy on the staff.

00;29;47;25 - 00;30;13;18
Lane Jones
It's going to create it's like, no, it's, it's really not. It's going to take whatever is bad or whatever is, you know, like stretched really thin and it's going to cause that to break and it's going to take whatever is working and make it deplete because, you know, you're you're, you're not ready to, to handle all that. So when we went multi-site, we did it from a position of we've got to do something to manage growth.

00;30;13;18 - 00;30;40;01
Lane Jones
So you said we added the extra auditorium, you know we grew so quickly we, we actually built a building bigger than we thought we would need long term or for the near, you know, a good, you know, good period of time and thought we'll have three or four years to to grow, get our feet under us and within I can't remember the exact dates, but it was, it was less than a year.

00;30;40;02 - 00;30;59;12
Lane Jones
So I want to say maybe within eight months we were out of space in two services and had to add a third service. And and quite honestly, we were just like in that moment of going, we've got to figure out a stopgap measure because we were again, this was back in starting in 95, built a building in 98.

00;30;59;18 - 00;31;20;07
Lane Jones
And so this is like 99 right in there. The the conventional wisdom was still you build what don't you you built phase one and then phase two is the 5 to 7000 seat, you know, big auditorium that, you know, that everybody sort of is like, this is what we're going to do. And so, you know, that's what we did.

00;31;20;07 - 00;31;42;24
Lane Jones
We built the first phase, had the plan, the master plan, had the big building out front. And but we grew so fast, we couldn't we could not add the the you know, the second phase big building. So we just said, okay, what's the cheapest, quickest thing we could do? Let's add a building, an auditorium, the same size just on the back side of the the stage.

00;31;43;05 - 00;32;07;01
Lane Jones
And we will build it so that we could convert it to children's classrooms for the big 7000 seat, whatever it was going to be thing out front. And you know the story and I can't remember the guy's name, but I think it was a security guard after we had opened the West Auditorium, is what we call it. You know, I guess it had been open a few few weeks or months.

00;32;07;18 - 00;32;28;18
Lane Jones
And he's walking out to his car and the guy just made the joke. He goes, you know, that works 20 feet away. You think it would work 20 miles away? We were like, you know what? It just you know, it just might, you know. So that actually began our conversations of, hey, is it better to build phase two here?

00;32;28;18 - 00;32;50;28
Lane Jones
Or do we look for where is the next best opportunity to build another campus? And so we began at that point to to, you know, look at where everybody was attending from. I want to say 30 to 40% of our attenders were coming from about ten miles north of us. So we began to look for land about 15 miles north of us so that we could offload people there.

00;32;50;28 - 00;33;22;15
Lane Jones
And that became our our what we called one of our guys called a cannibalization strategy, that our campuses were built to cannibalize other campuses. So, you know, so we built because of the momentum of campus, not just to go into an area. So that was our initial plan. Brown's bridge was going to be our first campus. You know, of course, God has other plans, and a group of people from Buckhead came to us and said, We want to start a church like North Point, but, you know, we want to do it here.

00;33;22;15 - 00;33;47;17
Lane Jones
And so we took that as a providential opportunity, started working with them. So technically, Buckhead Church started while we were looking for the land for Brown's Bridge. And so that's how it became our second campus. And and then in about three or four years, we we opened both of those buildings in 2000, right around 26.

00;33;47;17 - 00;34;13;19
Rusty George
You know, I've heard bits and pieces of the Northpoint story for years. And one of the things that often always comes up is Atlanta didn't need another church. It needed a different type of church. Right? And what was unique about the kind of church that you all launched, which was just unheard of at this time and the early nineties was it was strategically, you know, designed to be irresistible to unchurched people, right.

00;34;14;17 - 00;34;38;03
Rusty George
I wonder how are what's irresistible about church for people back then versus now? I mean people are a lot different issues are a lot different culture is a lot different than it was back in the mid nineties when you all do your planning services or when you watch younger campus pastors put their ministry plans together. Are the needs the same?

00;34;38;04 - 00;34;46;18
Rusty George
Are we still dealing with the same timeless issues people have, or are you finding, you know what irresistible mean something different now than it did back then?

00;34;47;02 - 00;35;14;29
Lane Jones
Well, I mean, I think, you know, obviously, you know, people want to be better, you know, better spouses, better parents, better, you know, children to their adult parents, you know, better members of the community. They want to they want to follow Jesus more effectively. So a lot of the the basic needs that most people feel and have felt for years is is is the same.

00;35;14;29 - 00;36;01;13
Lane Jones
And I would say that, you know, most churches would say exactly. That's that's you know, those are the very same things that we are trying to meet and trying to do as well. I think for us that the different kind of church that we decided to to to start at least in the Atlanta area, was that there were very there there was there were no churches in the Atlanta area that were were outward facing to the community to say, we want to partner with, you know, those people who attend here to reach their friends, their family for Christ, not as an as an evangelism strategy, but as a church strategy, as a model strategy.

00;36;01;20 - 00;36;26;21
Lane Jones
So we know we would say we want to partner with you in reaching your unchurched friends and family. And by that, what we we we meant was we don't want people to show up into a room and feel like no one thought they were going to be there. You know, it's kind of that the illustration we would always give is it would be like inviting people over for dinner and then just going about your night as if they weren't there.

00;36;26;21 - 00;36;55;00
Lane Jones
You know, you go into the living room, have a seat, you know, ignore them, do whatever is like, well, in many ways that was the church culture that existed in most of the churches in Atlanta at the time where it was the church was for insiders, then evangelism was for outsiders. So we would you know, it was sort of that, hey, we're going to all go out on Monday night and we're going to you know, we're going to, you know, share our faith, do evangelism and do all of that and hopefully lead them to Christ.

00;36;55;00 - 00;37;23;12
Lane Jones
And then once they're an insider, they're going to come in here and then we're going to tell them how to be an insider. And so the problem with that is most people didn't do that. Most people were like, I don't want to go out and I don't want to do that. But if you will partner with me and you will create a place that is expecting my unchurched friends and family to come, I will partner with you in doing that, both helping you fund it, staff it, and inviting my friends and my family to come to it.

00;37;23;12 - 00;37;50;17
Lane Jones
So that's that's what we meant by creating a different kind of church. A church that was as, as concerned about who we were reaching, as who we were keeping to the way we used to say it. Whereas most churches, you know, are more insider focused. One of the things that we say, you know, again and again, is that, you know, that that, you know, Andy coined the phrase that, you know, the gravitational pull of the local church is to the insiders.

00;37;50;17 - 00;38;11;22
Lane Jones
And so it's it's it's just and is it's not like nobody intends for it to happen. It's just that, you know, the the insiders are they're the you know, they're the people who pay the bills to the people who, you know, have your phone number. They're the people who are able to to reach out to you. So, you know, it's the old squeaky wheel gets the grease mentality.

00;38;11;22 - 00;38;37;06
Lane Jones
It's it's when all you hear from our insiders, if you don't resist that pull, you will be drawn toward them. And we're just as susceptible to that as anybody. So we have to purposefully think with the outsider in mind, think with, you know, the the unchurched friends and family that we have in mind. And the phrase that we use is we assume they're in the room.

00;38;37;06 - 00;38;59;28
Lane Jones
And so we we want to make sure that that everything we say and do is done with the filter that someone took a chance on inviting an unchurched friend or family member that day. And we don't want to mess that up. We, you know, we want to make sure that we don't put an unnecessary obstacle between them in following Jesus.

00;39;00;10 - 00;39;30;20
Lane Jones
And so, you know, we we tend to overexplain things or we tend to not do some things that, you know, maybe, you know, would done, you know, on a regular, you know, and a service that doesn't have that filter. And, you know, we we we respect the viewpoints of of unchurched and, you know, unbelieving people. And so we may be teaching something that if we think is particularly wow, that may be a little harsh where you say, hey, you know, and you've probably heard Andy say this many times, it's like, you know what?

00;39;31;06 - 00;39;56;18
Lane Jones
If you're here today and you're not a Jesus follower, this may be the reason why. It may be because, you know, whatever he's talking about, but but then he'll put it in a perspective so that they can can at least understand it, if not accept it. So we we want people to be able to belong before they believe and to feel at home and not feel like they're listening in on, you know, something that they're not a part of.

00;39;56;27 - 00;39;57;10
Lane Jones
MM hmm.

00;39;58;00 - 00;40;34;29
Rusty George
Well, that's that's certainly been one of the main things you guys have taught me and so many others. And I and I'm I'm sad to say, that was that was revolutionary back in the nineties. You know, I think, you know, Hybels and and Warren kind of got the idea going of being seeker driven or sensitive and and you guys kind of made it a little bit more focused on, okay, let's be irresistible and right and it's just sad that thanks for so many years and this is the reason I never invited anybody in my home church when I was a kid was it was, you know, the the the congregation of the secret handshake.

00;40;34;29 - 00;40;50;07
Rusty George
Everybody knew. Yeah you know, when we stand, when we sit, when we sing, and it's just it was weird and all right. And suddenly, you know, you guys just changed the way that so many of us thought about church. And a lot of it had to do with how we thought about teaching, too. So. Yeah. Oh, go ahead.

00;40;50;15 - 00;40;51;12
Rusty George
I cut you off there.

00;40;51;21 - 00;41;11;22
Lane Jones
Well, I was going to say, you know, you ask, what has anything changed That is is irresistible? You know, I do think some of the things that haven't changed you're about to I think a dress one is helpful teaching that is taught in a clear and applicable way that that helps, you know, helps my life to be better.

00;41;11;22 - 00;41;33;00
Lane Jones
You know, it is, as Andy said, we think, you know, following Jesus makes your life better and makes you better at life. And we want to provide, you know, teaching that gives them handles for a better life and for, you know, effectively following Christ. And, you know, one of the other things we believe that is is irresistible. We think excellence is irresistible.

00;41;33;24 - 00;41;57;11
Lane Jones
At the same time, I will say one of the things that has begun to shift in culture is that not that that we were ever inauthentic, but authenticity has begun to become, in some ways, the new excellence. And so and, you know, we're it's not that we're not still pursuing excellence, but we want to make sure and we have a filter now to go, hey, is this an authentic experience?

00;41;57;11 - 00;42;17;20
Lane Jones
Is the is what the worship leader saying is that is is that authentic or that the message is authentic? Are we addressing topics that that have a real life feel, not a you know, not a hey, here's what we think you should believe or think. But, you know, here's what we're hearing. Here's what we're seeing. And, you know, we're addressing that.

00;42;17;20 - 00;42;46;27
Lane Jones
So I do think that in the last 30 years, what is, you know, those things that are irresistible have begun somewhat to shift. But, you know, not not to the point to where I would say, you know what? You know, what has what we were doing then was more or less irresistible. I do think we've we've tried to always stay current with, you know, with worship, with, you know, the things that everybody does.

00;42;46;27 - 00;43;11;06
Lane Jones
It's just like, you know, you don't want to get stuck in a time or a time warp where you walk in and go, Oh, wow, this is the 19, you know, this is 1995, you know, or this is, you know, 2008 or whatever. So, you know, I think we're committed to that as well. And part of that is, you know, you just keep hiring enough young people and they're going to keep you they're going to keep you authentic and irresistible.

00;43;11;06 - 00;43;21;07
Rusty George
So let's talk about that a little bit. You guys have hired a lot of young people and your role has changed multiple times. What's the next decade look like for you?

00;43;21;07 - 00;43;40;12
Lane Jones
You know, I think for me, the exciting thing about probably the last five years and what I probably feel like for the next five years is that I've been to move, you know, more into a coaching and developmental role than an a a director. You know, It's like, So is it going to be this way or that way?

00;43;40;12 - 00;44;09;04
Lane Jones
Is it going to be up or down or are we going to go in this day or that day? You know, So that's that's been exciting for me because, you know, the older you get, the more sort of accumulated wisdom you have. But also the the the excitement goes from doing it to watching others do it and helping people to to, you know, to to succeed and to see them accomplish things that maybe they didn't think they were able to.

00;44;09;04 - 00;44;30;14
Lane Jones
Now, the great thing about a lot of our young leaders is that we are very competent and very confident leaders. So most of them, they think you're going to be able to do it anyway. So I mean, I'm happy about that. But watching them succeed, you know, rarely when you've raised kids, you know, you realized, wow, that is the ultimate win.

00;44;31;01 - 00;45;12;25
Lane Jones
The ultimate win is that, you know, always just getting it right. It is watching someone else get it right and and sort of helping them along in that journey. So for me personally, about five and a half, six years ago, I moved into the multi-site role and just began having the opportunity to invest in and to in some ways develop it most of the time just help our lead pastors navigate the organization and navigate just, you know, ministry and, you know, and in some ways, just help point you, know things in the right direction and then just watch God do what he's going to do through them.

00;45;12;25 - 00;45;35;28
Lane Jones
So that's been super exciting. And then getting to meet guys like you and through that irresistible church network and and, you know, when we began that so many years ago now, I don't think anyone imagined that, you know, it would have the the life that it has. But that's been super exciting. And I get to be a part of that.

00;45;36;02 - 00;45;56;20
Lane Jones
Just an island guy. You know, one of the best leaders I've ever had the chance to work with leads that team. But we're just in a fun season now where we're, you know, we're learning alongside everybody else. And we we meet guys like you and and other leaders across the country and we think, wow, that is so cool what they're doing.

00;45;56;20 - 00;46;20;24
Lane Jones
And we learn. And then we talk about it and sometimes we get credit for it. So that's a win win. But but it's it's it's just a great season of of really seeing the next generation begin to step up and find new ways of expressing some of the same principles that we expressed. One way they're finding new and different ways of doing it.

00;46;20;24 - 00;46;25;01
Lane Jones
And so that part is is really it's really cool.

00;46;25;10 - 00;46;47;19
Rusty George
Let me ask you this question, Lane, because I've watched you do this effortlessly. Now there are people listening to this podcast that they they are not the lead pastor or they're not the person in charge, but they work for the person that is. And so they're in the number two role. They're in the second chair, they're on a team or a committee or whatever it is.

00;46;48;11 - 00;46;48;21
Lane Jones
Right?

00;46;49;17 - 00;47;10;02
Rusty George
What could you share that you have learned about how, you know, what's the best way to support the person who's the leader while you're not the leader? Because there's times that you need to support publicly and then behind closed doors, you need to let them have it. How do you how do you critique in a way that honors them?

00;47;10;02 - 00;47;29;00
Rusty George
How do you warn them about a potential danger coming their way? How do you encourage them in a way that's different than what everybody else says in the lobby? Yeah. What have you learned? And I know some of this is personality driven, and what Andy prefers is not what others do, but what have you. What have you learned about yourself in that role that could be beneficial to somebody else?

00;47;29;09 - 00;47;50;11
Lane Jones
Yeah, I think you just you just touched on one that we've talked about for years and that, again, Andy has talked about is that idea that public loyalty, that's what breeds private influence, that, you know, if you want to earn private influence with someone you know, you give them public loyalty. And and and that's not a whatever you say.

00;47;50;11 - 00;48;06;27
Lane Jones
Yes, I'll do it. It's we get in the room, we talk it through, we make a decision. And when we go out the door, we're all behind it. We don't undermine that. We don't go, Well, I didn't want to do it anyway. But, you know, that's what we said we had to do. And I mean, it's like, no, that's the decision we made and we're behind it.

00;48;07;09 - 00;48;30;17
Lane Jones
And. And you support it. And that is what gives you the chance when you go in the room and close the door to say what you need to say and to have what Lynne Cheney calls unfiltered debate and that's been the basis of our organization from from day one. And yeah, there's there was a ton of unfiltered debate, especially in the early days when we were in some ways making this up as we go.

00;48;30;17 - 00;48;51;13
Lane Jones
We're trying to figure out what are the guiding principles, what are the core values, what are the the ministry principles that and practices that are going to form the core of what we're doing? We you know, we had a long and honest debate on those things, but it was the ability to go out of the room and support both Andy as the leader.

00;48;51;13 - 00;49;13;28
Lane Jones
But, you know, almost more important, support the mission and vision that we had all agreed to and decided on and and, you know, behind that and and is a very open handed and and, you know, super humble guy and he there's there's never been a time that I've been like, hey, can I you know, can I tell you something get a point something out that he's not been like.

00;49;13;28 - 00;49;34;01
Lane Jones
Absolutely. You know so it's not there's there is no well, you know, I think I can do two of these a year. So is this one of those Do I for it? You know, it's not you know, it's not that at all. It's it's you know, it's like, wow, I can I can point out anything. Now, at the same time, as you said, some of this is personality.

00;49;34;01 - 00;49;55;26
Lane Jones
So how will you do that, you know, approach is, you know, again, I quote Andy all the time because, again, I've worked for over 30 years. That approach trumps content 100% of the time. So you can be exactly right. I can be like, hey, I know, you know, we're I think, you know, I disagree with something. You know, he's decided or the organization's decided or whatever.

00;49;55;26 - 00;50;12;15
Lane Jones
And I know my approach will determine whether or not that's received really well or not as well. So, you know, and that's the that's the personality, you know, piece of it, you know, is, as he always says, I would love to know what everybody you know, if you have a thought on my message, I would love to know it.

00;50;12;15 - 00;50;31;15
Lane Jones
I just don't want to know it before Tuesday. You know, it's kind of like, give me a day, you know, to press, you know, don't come up after the service. You know, what I would have done there? I mean, it's like, well, I know what you know, I know what I did, and I'd rather not know what you would have done right now, you know, But that's that's how we all are, you know, so so, you know, approach is, is super important.

00;50;32;28 - 00;50;50;09
Lane Jones
But and that's where I think knowing yourself, you know, the more self-aware you are as a leader, the more you'll know what your motives are. And, you know, is this because I want to be right is just because I want to be seen as right is this because I just want to prove I know something or I've got an insight here.

00;50;50;18 - 00;51;15;14
Lane Jones
Or is this because. No, I think if I don't say this, the you know, the organization might suffer or that could be better. That's you know, if that's what motivates you, then then any leader worth following is going to be wide to hearing any of that. So having self-awareness to know, you know, why am I wanting to to share this is number one.

00;51;15;14 - 00;51;34;25
Lane Jones
And the second thing is being aware of your leader, knowing how your leader likes information, knowing how your leader accepts it, and what's the best way to approach that. You know, Andy's Enneagram one, He likes facts and he likes them in bullet points, you know? And so, I mean, it is like very much, you know, hey, here's what I think.

00;51;34;26 - 00;51;54;18
Lane Jones
Here it is, you know, succinctly and put through. And he's able to process it and go, okay, I see what you're saying, or I agree or disagree or whatever. But, you know, if I start off and go, well you know, six years ago and we started this long modestly, you know, I know it's not you know, it may be interesting, but it will not be effective.

00;51;54;18 - 00;52;28;06
Lane Jones
So I think that's part of it, too, is know yourself, know your leader. But you know, down deep, if if there's someone that you work for that you know you know, I can't tell them the important and critical things then you know you may be you may be wasting your time or at least wasting the, you know, the ability God has has given you tend to use in ministry because ultimately you don't want to you know, you don't want to work for somebody who's not open to what's best for the organization.

00;52;28;18 - 00;52;48;25
Lane Jones
The caveat to that being it just may not be what you think. You know, we always, you know, tell people, hey, challenge the process, bring your ideas, but don't assume you're right. You know, we we love to be challenged. We love to have new ideas. We love for people to push back. But just because you push back doesn't mean you're right about it.

00;52;48;25 - 00;52;51;24
Lane Jones
So you got to be humble as well when you do that.

00;52;52;26 - 00;52;58;20
Rusty George
That's so good. Well, Lane, as always, when I talk with you, I end up taking notes.

00;52;59;22 - 00;53;02;03
Lane Jones
Even if it's because I quote Andy a lot.

00;53;02;25 - 00;53;18;13
Rusty George
And I know, I know, I know fresh stuff from you, but you've been such an inspiration to me and countless other pastors. So thank you for all you've done in the way that you've served out of humility. But also a lot of wisdom for so many years. So well. Great job. Finish strong and thank you so much.

00;53;18;21 - 00;53;46;23
Lane Jones
Well, thanks for the I will say and just take a minute here and say and I say this to countless number of people when they say, hey, what's you know, what excites you most about what you see happen? You know, life change. Absolutely. What God has done. Absolutely. But the most confirming thing that I see day in and day out is when leaders such as yourself choose to come alongside us and work with us and and be a part of what we're doing.

00;53;47;04 - 00;54;04;10
Lane Jones
That is so much confirmation of what God has done in your organization. And so I just appreciate so much what you and so many other guys like yourself have not only brought to the table, but have how God has used you to affirm and reaffirm what he's done here. So thank you.

00;54;04;15 - 00;54;28;15
Rusty George
Thanks, buddy. Well, such great stuff from Lane. I love that guy. He's been such a tremendous inspiration to me and has provided such great resources for our church, and I'm grateful for him being on the show. Next week, we're back with brand new content with a guy that you've not heard of, but man, you won't forget. His name is Brian Hixson and he is literally a brain scientist.

00;54;28;15 - 00;54;44;01
Rusty George
Might be the best way to talk about him. He actually is going to help us make the brain simple. You're not going to imagine or believe what he has to say. It's incredible. So he'll be back with us next week. Make sure you check out Saga counseling dot com to find out more about marriage and family therapy or counseling.

00;54;44;08 - 00;54;52;29
Rusty George
And they will be able to walk you through all the resources they provide saga counseling dot com. Well thanks for being with us and as always keep it simple.

00;54;53;14 - 00;55;09;20
Intro/Outro
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00;55;09;20 - 00;55;18;21
Speaker 4