The Rusty George Podcast

Ben Cachiaras (00:00.694)
We kind of did the borrow the ones that everyone is doing a year. So we were doing we started with. Gosh, Michael J. Fox, Back to the Future. And that was fun. You know, I had a DeLorean, you know, did it in a DeLorean film with a DeLorean and in the door. And then Man Called Otto had a ton of fun with, you know, I took on the characters a little bit this year, so I kind of dressed apart and.

Rusty (00:06.953)
Ha ha

Rusty (00:16.644)
Oh, cool.

Rusty (00:24.701)
Okay?

Rusty (00:28.756)
Nice.

Ben Cachiaras (00:29.138)
All of our advertisements, I was a cranky old man. You know, it was kind of fun. And got Jesus Revolution coming. We're gonna do some more baptism there. We did Cars and Shawshank Redemption. So, and then a reprise of Marley and Me, which, you know, we kind of pick one of the ones that it was the most endearing and from a couple years back, we show it. And it's gone over great, so.

Rusty (00:32.237)
Okay.

Rusty (00:43.444)
Nice. Oh.

Rusty (00:53.46)
crowd favorite.

Rusty (00:58.068)
That's an old gene apple trick right there, isn't it?

Ben Cachiaras (00:59.87)
Well, that's where I got it. Yeah, of course. It's like, yeah, why not? You know, people like to watch their favorite movies twice. And the ones that every year somebody says, that was amazing. I love that. We we kind of hang on to it. Yeah. How about you guys? I mean, you feel like you got settled in, you know, your way around yet. You got you get lost in the building still every day or what's going on?

Rusty (01:02.661)
Yeah.

Rusty (01:09.33)
Yeah.

It's her.

Rusty (01:18.536)
Well, I've been doing the, I'm going to unlock and open a new door every single day. And I don't think I've conquered it all yet. So we're, we're getting used to things. I'm gearing up for our first summer out here in Dallas. Heat plus humidity, which we haven't had in a while, but no, I love it. It was a great decision and we're really getting settled in. And we just did our first staff retreat and it was fantastic. So it's building a lot of momentum right now.

Go well.

Ben Cachiaras (01:49.99)
I'm really glad to hear that you've had a chance to just get with your staff. That's what you needed is just more time with them to hang out and let them get to know you and see you.

Rusty (01:57.288)
Yeah.

Rusty (02:03.281)
Yeah.

Rusty (02:08.276)
Yeah, it's been a great run so far. So looking forward to more. Well, man, I appreciate your time. Thanks for doing this. Thanks for being willing to talk about these things that some people are too scared to talk about apparently. So we'll.

Ben Cachiaras (02:11.342)
It's awesome.

Ben Cachiaras (02:19.79)
Apparently, Genie's a little weenie, Genie Weenie. We'll have to, we'll see if we can get that to stick.

Rusty (02:22.312)
Hahaha!

Rusty (02:26.018)
He got blown up pretty good on social media four years ago, so I think he's a little bit scarred.

Ben Cachiaras (02:32.198)
Yeah, I, that is kind of what happened, I'm sure. And I don't, you know, I don't blame him. And he does a great job of navigating this stuff. And there's more than one way to skin a cat. We have just, I mean, we can talk about this later, but I've just found that the more clear we can be about why we do and don't do the things the way we do them, the less we just don't have.

Rusty (02:40.681)
Oh, and that's, yeah, he's always.

Rusty (02:59.57)
Yeah.

Ben Cachiaras (03:00.246)
We just, and we had, everyone had stuff in 2020, but yeah. But, you know, anyway, so how long do you want this to be? Is this a 20 minute podcast? Is this a two hour podcast? What do we got here?

Rusty (03:03.364)
Yeah, there was a lot of stuff going on besides just that.

Rusty (03:13.14)
Yeah, it's like Joe Rogan. Uh, we'll eventually be smoking weed. So I hope you got some, uh, probably anywhere between, uh, 30, 30 minutes or so, 30, 45 minutes. Um, so what I'll do, cause your message was great. I'll, I'll kind of just, you know, we'll get through the intro stuff and I'll kind of tee it up for you and kind of allow you to walk through your points. And I'll, I'll just throw you a point and then you can run with it and we'll just knock through it that way. Be great.

Ben Cachiaras (03:17.92)
Alright, let's go.

Ben Cachiaras (03:39.274)
Yeah, that sounds great. So you're okay. And you're okay if I ramble on for a little bit without necessarily being sued. So, uh, yeah, if you want more conversation, we can certainly do it that way. And I'm happy to do that. I'll try to, you know, and you can just kind of fire back or whatever you want. Whatever you want me to do.

Rusty (03:55.76)
Yep.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Do you just be you and I'll interrupt if I need to, or course, correct. And if you say something, you think, I don't like the way that sounded. Just tell us, we'll cut it out later.

Ben Cachiaras (04:09.502)
Okay, is your primary audience church leaders? Yeah.

Rusty (04:14.904)
It is, but there's a lot of, you know, parishioners that will listen to it as well. So just focus on kind of what churches should do and shouldn't do through this season and leaders as well. Hey, let me pray for us. We'll get rolling. God, thanks for Ben and just his friendship over the years and just his integrity and just setting the bar high for all of us and doing such a great job of being the guy that we can look at and point to and say, that's how you do it. So.

I pray that you would use this conversation to bless a lot of pastors that listen to this. That would encourage them as they navigate these difficult waters and church people just to kind of calm down and realize it's going to be okay. Thank you, Lord, that we can trust in that. I pray all this in Jesus' name. Amen.

Ben Cachiaras (04:57.15)
All right, hey, first of all, it's time for my B-reel. So here you go. You ready? We'll go one, two, three on it. Here we go, you ready? One, two, three.

Rusty (05:00.261)
Oh, hang on. Yep, me too.

Rusty (05:06.26)
Okay. Yep.

Ben Cachiaras (05:15.49)
How cool is that?

Rusty (05:16.72)
That's hilarious.

Rusty (05:21.336)
All right, Ben Kacharis, welcome to the show. Minnesota Vikings fan, uh, before we get into, you know, the spiritual stuff, there's gotta be a grieving.

Ben Cachiaras (05:28.462)
Come on.

Ben Cachiaras (05:32.366)
What do you mean? That is, wait, first of all, I don't like the discrepancy you drew there. There's nothing more spiritual than my devotion to the team. What was your question? I'm handling all Vikings questions.

Rusty (05:43.816)
I appreciate that. Oh my goodness. Well, I mean, how do you feel? You know, you've lost Kirk Cousins, which was kind of the moral compass for all of football after we all watched quarterback. So, I mean, are you excited? Yeah.

Ben Cachiaras (05:58.918)
I'm sad about it. I'm a lady. I like there's a lot of people that are like, you know what? It was great for us. But we don't know who we're going to have instead. We're going to go out and try to get a draft pick and turn this thing around and all that. But I love Kirk. I thought he was great. I was proud of him. Everybody watched him on that Netflix thing and thought he was great. And I did, too. I'm a big fan, but I'm a little salty and a little mad at him right now. We're not talking. He and I are not even talking. And we'll see.

Rusty (06:23.944)
You

Ben Cachiaras (06:26.346)
You know what? I'm a Vikings fan. I've been around a long time. I know what it's like to get your hopes up and then have them dashed. So.

Rusty (06:34.444)
Well, yeah, ever since that Miss Field goal. I hate to, sorry to bring that up. Uh, okay. Uh, tell everybody who you are. I know you, others know you, but not everybody knows you. So let us know.

Ben Cachiaras (06:37.729)
Oh.

Ben Cachiaras (06:46.966)
Well, my name is Ben Kacharis and I'm married to a wonderful lifelong partner of many, many years, Carla. We have three kids, Nathan Andrew and Ellie in Tennessee and in San Fran area and in Maryland. And they're awesome. A couple of them are married. And we have had the privilege and blessing of serving with a really incredible.

community of people called Mountain Christian Church out on the kind of outer reaches of Baltimore on the north side, if you know that area, you can just get out of Miami on I-95 and keep going and you'll go right practically by our church. But it's a few miles up the road north of Baltimore. And yeah, right off I-95 and it's a crazy church in the sense that we're celebrating our 200th anniversary this year. You know, that's crazy, isn't it?

Rusty (07:43.216)
Wow.

Ben Cachiaras (07:45.11)
think about it, like it's before like bicycles and electricity was invented and indoor plumbing. I mean, it goes way back pre-Civil War, like this is crazy. So we're having a lot of fun with that. And yet the kind of, the coolest part is we're, we're at our greatest season of explosive growth in our history right now, you know? So grew 40% last year and just had, you know, all these baptisms on Easter. And it's just something really special to see what God's doing. So.

Rusty (07:52.84)
That's crazy.

Rusty (08:04.391)
Hmm.

Ben Cachiaras (08:14.23)
We're really enjoying our time. I've been there 27 years and just holding on to the train. It's a fast moving thing. We're just trying to keep up.

Rusty (08:23.1)
Man, that is so great. Well, you have been one of those guys that's a voice for a lot of pastors, a lot of leaders. And I wanted to get you on the show. And I've been wanting to do this for actually years because I just love hanging out with you at the times that we get to do it and love talking football and ministry and life. But with this upcoming season of the political nature of what we're getting ready to walk through,

Here we go, part two. You know, and last time went so well. People were just thrilled with their choices and how things turned out. So I guess what I'd love to hear from you is, there's a lot of churches out there trying to figure out, are we supposed to kind of, you know, put our stake in the ground at some point? I mean, what's the balance between being the voice for our culture and community versus, you know, this Christian nationalism thing that we all fear? And well, you're right up there.

You know, near where a lot of the decisions are made and a lot of the power brokers are. How have you in this politically charged season decided to navigate things and maybe said, okay, we did this in 2020 and we're not going to do that again, or we are going to do this again. Um, just give us some of the, the original thinking or thought process that you guys have been wrestling with all this.

Ben Cachiaras (09:45.15)
Yeah, man, anyone who's, you know, everyone, like you say, everyone feels something still in their spirit from 2020 where, wow, that conversation went bad in a hurry, or we had a big thing in a small group at our church, or, you know, the minister said this or that. And, and you said it's, it's this is the second time around. In a way, it's kind of the third. It feels like it's been getting worse, doesn't it? Like 2016 was no cakewalk. And, and 2020, we just saw a new level of animosity.

I think it's well, everyone feels it, the polarization and the difficulty, the like you can't even make a joke anymore without really, it's kind of a, everyone's easily offended and anger is high, everyone's politic'd off as it were. And so we've, you know, I think as you look at different church approaches, some are just going,

hard on it, you know, let's just go. And we're gonna, and you can draw a crowd that way around like, we've gotta talk about a particular, almost partisan perspective on this because that's our best chance to save, you know, the name of God in our country. And, you know, I think we all feel like a heightened sense of urgency. And some are just going that way. Some I think are going the opposite way. Just like, I ain't touching this thing with a 10 foot pole.

And so if your question was what we're doing, we're going to try to do what we did in 2020, which is be as clear as we can about who we are, why we're here, and help people understand that we're not a church that's going to jump into the fray and lead with a bunch of political stuff on either side and that everybody's truly welcome here. We've got a big mission here.

That's in nutshell kind of what we're trying to do. I feel like there's a lot at stake, Rusty. I feel like just the name of Jesus is hugely in jeopardy in a way because of the way the church, how the church handles this in this season seems really, really important to me. So we're pretty straight up with it. Yeah, yeah.

Rusty (12:04.392)
So with that in mind, with that in mind, let me just ask this, are you recommending that churches talk about it? Because I know some churches are like, I'm not even gonna bring it up, because it's such a political landmine field. So are you feeling like, man, we've got to address this, or should you be a little bit more subversive, or is it kind of doing the ground game and working with small groups first? Or what's the tension there you're feeling?

Ben Cachiaras (12:32.294)
Yeah, that's a great question. I think it's all the above and I think it really is a case by case based on the style and the leadership gifts of each kind of ministry situation. I think there's a strong case to be made for like some of the best culture shifts and changes you make in your church kind of don't always happen up front and you know aren't always stage announcements or sermons preached.

but are just kind of the slow trickle of good leadership over a long period of time through intentional like studies and groups with certain leaders that you, you know, wrinkle out. I think that's valid. And for us, we've taken, we want to do all those things, but I think I never want to miss an opportunity to kind of just name what's going on, the elephant in the room, if you will. Everyone's thinking about this. And it feels to me like we got to help our people think.

and behave like disciples through this. Like this is every single day on their newsfeed, their phones, their conversations at the water cooler, everything is like, how in the world do we get through the, and it so happens that I think being a disciple of Jesus has a lot to inform about how we respond. So for us, we wanna be right up front with it. We wanna kind of lead with, here's how we as a church are gonna handle it. Here's how we,

Rusty (13:28.911)
Mm-hmm.

Ben Cachiaras (13:55.306)
believe that every disciple ought to navigate it, kind of corporate and individual, and just lay some stuff out. During 2020, we were still, we're out here on the East Coast, we were still meeting out in the parking lot. And we did a series that some of our friends did, I stole the title and kind of wrote some of our own stuff on it, but it was called The Separation of Church and Hate. And kind of that catchy title because...

Rusty (14:15.524)
Mm-hmm.

Ben Cachiaras (14:19.478)
but we just went right through some stuff in 2020. And I was really affirmed in what I'm describing to you as our approach. People were deeply appreciative. Even if they didn't like everything that was said, it was like, okay, now I know why he's not saying all the stuff I want him to say, or now I know why we're handling the election this way. So for us, it is that ground game. And I think there's a lot that can be done behind the scenes and in subtle ways and just...

Rusty (14:36.957)
Mm-hmm.

Ben Cachiaras (14:48.674)
People do notice what you do and don't do, but we've liked to be straight on it. I advocate like preach a sermon series on this, lay out your cards or, you know, for years I used to preach every election year, every four years I'd preach the same kind of sermon. It was called, let me tell you how you should vote. You know, I'd come out with a bulletproof vest. I'd borrow from some cop or something, you know, as a ha ha, you know, although I thought, well,

Rusty (15:08.815)
Hahaha

Ben Cachiaras (15:18.334)
It's mostly a funny bit, but it might not hurt to have the song today. But of course I didn't tell anyone. Right?

Rusty (15:23.471)
It becomes more and more appropriate. Okay, so I've heard you talk about this and write about this, but you talk about clarity around three things. Can you walk us through what those three things are?

Ben Cachiaras (15:36.958)
Yeah, I think we really want to help people see some just some big stuff. And I think the reason for the clarity, I think, Rusty, is because everyone senses the disunity in culture at large. And they I think more of our people are sensing. I don't think it's cool that Christians are largely mimicking this sort of divisive behavior. And I think there's an awareness of that. And so.

Rusty (15:52.645)
Yeah.

Ben Cachiaras (16:05.158)
I think it's an opportunity to do some basic teaching on, you know, unity is actually really important. It was a huge deal with Jesus, Paul talks about it. It's all through the New Testament. It's just that Christians today don't actually think it's a big deal. Like it doesn't matter. We kind of have, it's almost like we've given up on it. Like nobody really does that. Like it's in the category of don't gouge your eye out. Like when, you know, like, let's not get carried away here. And it seems to me that really, really talking about

how important unity is not only to Jesus and Paul, but what a game changer that would be if we could live into and out of the New Testament vision for one faith, one Lord, one baptism, and coming together around Christ. I think there's a strong longing for that. And so when I talk about clarity, I talk about it in that way, like if we're gonna be able to

as Paul says, strive or really work hard for unity in a world that's like not interested in that at all. Like just run to the pole and shoot, you know, like bunker mentality, stick your head up, shoot at somebody, get back down. If we're going to be unity based, then that's why we need clarity because otherwise it just feels like I'm just trying to ram, push a rope or, you know, get people to do something they don't want to do. But when you start talking about wouldn't it be beautiful if we could live how good and pleasant it is when we can dwell together in unity and everyone goes, yes.

If you've ever been part of an apartment complex or a team or anything that didn't have unity, we all know how much it sucks. So now I got a heart engaged like, yes, OK, we should. So once I get a want to moving in the direction of, yeah, let's what would it how could we do a better job of expressing unity as God's people in a world that's really divided? That's where I want to talk about clarity. And and so the first thing for me is like.

It's an identity question for every disciple of Jesus. Every follower of Christ, like, who are we? Whose are we? Is really, really important. And just making it crystal clear that our first and foremost allegiance has got to be to Jesus. One of the reasons we're in such a mess is that we're not really sure where our highest allegiance are. We'd all say with our lips, oh, Jesus is Lord. But man.

Rusty (18:04.765)
Hmm.

Ben Cachiaras (18:26.846)
It sure looks to me like a lot of people who wear the name Christian are a little more fired up and loyal to a kind of perspective that they have adopted, which you're allowed to do as a Christian, right? But when it rises above in the way I actually think and make decisions and consider people and how I act, so I think it starts right there with your baptism was your pledge of allegiance to Jesus Christ

Rusty (18:55.207)
Hmm.

Ben Cachiaras (18:56.366)
Above all, Christian is not an adjective that modifies something else, you primarily are. No, no, it's the thing. We gotta help our people really see my identity as a follower of Christ is who I am at my core. So, or are we primarily Republicans who wanna have a little Christian bumper sticker on our car or a little bit of Christian snowin' in? So I think it's the first thing is just like, man,

Let's get people as fired up about Jesus as they are about their politics. And just coming back to that identity question of who and whose we are, our citizenships in heaven, and all the ways that every good preacher will know how to draw on the New Testament just help us see. But that's, I think, a number one issue behind all the struggle with nationalism and all the struggle with Christian disagreeing is we forget our primary allegiance is to Christ and therefore to one another first and foremost.

Rusty (19:30.66)
Yeah.

Ben Cachiaras (19:55.77)
And boy, that alone right there solves a chunk of the issue, I think. But you can't overemphasize that. And then the second thing we need clarity around is like, OK, what are we actually here to do? What's our mission? And there's a long history here. We could we could run down a lot of rabbit holes on this one, Rusty, about, you know, the relationship of the church to the world around us. And what is the best way for us to make our impact? Is it through?

Rusty (20:01.192)
Mm-hmm.

Rusty (20:08.977)
Right.

Ben Cachiaras (20:24.31)
politics, is it through, you know, different ways of engaging culture? And there's lots of different ways that churches have successfully engaged culture through history. But it seems like we're right now in a time, kind of on the, in the aftermath of the religious right moral majority experiment that I would say failed abysmally. We still tend to believe that if we could get more godly people in government and get more laws changed, and if we could

win a culture war, then we would really do God a favor and get this country back. And those are all things that I care pretty passionately about. It just turns out that those actually aren't the mission we've been given by our Lord, which was to make disciples of all people. So this is tricky, you know, because who wants to say they're not for, you know, helping our country and getting, I like to have

Rusty (21:14.034)
Hmm

Ben Cachiaras (21:23.166)
the Supreme Court vote in the way I would like it to vote. But that just isn't actually our mission. And you can only really be, you can only have one main thing. And we've been asked to be stewards of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And the moment we sell our soul for a pottage of political stew, it's a bad trade because we may think we're winning points for Jesus. But whenever we mix the mission of Jesus,

Rusty (21:33.041)
Yeah.

Ben Cachiaras (21:49.398)
and a political partisanship or advocate so strongly that it's what we're known for primarily, Jesus always suffers, the church always suffers. We don't need any more data here. The data is conclusive. We've all talked about the rise of the nuns and how many people are walking away from faith over the last few decades and how turned off they are. And the data is conclusive. It's like, I don't like it.

Rusty (21:55.71)
Hmm.

Ben Cachiaras (22:16.982)
Now, I got a lot I want to say about it, but I can't argue with the reality that for many of the people who have walked away from Christian faith, their issue isn't with Jesus. It's that their it's their perception that many, I'll say, evangelical ish churches are too entangled in politics and they just don't want it. They can get that anywhere. And so I think that's the reason we have to remind ourselves what our mission is.

Rusty (22:46.575)
Hmm.

Ben Cachiaras (22:46.642)
and therefore really be cautious about aligning too closely with a party or a perspective or a politician because the moment I do that, I turn off half the people I'm actually sent here to reach as my mission. So people are coming to your church down their crossroads, they need Jesus, Rusty, and I hope you don't make them wade through your politics to get there.

Rusty (22:51.592)
Yeah.

Rusty (23:02.31)
Right.

Ben Cachiaras (23:12.354)
The moment I come out as a Trump guy or a Biden guy, the moment I, that's the moment I give half the people at least their reason to tune me out because that's all anybody gets all day long. So I got a lot of things I wanna say about a lot of issues, but I've gotta be wise because I, if I'm gonna be faithful to what our mission actually is. And that's to be stewards and caretakers and.

Rusty (23:37.018)
Mm.

Ben Cachiaras (23:41.938)
and heralds of a gospel that is tremendously good news. Somewhere along the way over the last 30, 40 years especially, a watching world really doesn't think we have good news. They think we're just one more, you know, we're in the hip pocket of some party and we have our own politics. And so it's a lot we can say to get defensive about all that, but the fact is it's just the way it is. I mean, I don't like some of it, and those are the things I want to say in rebuttal. But that's the first thing is just like who and whose we are.

Rusty (24:00.092)
Mm.

Ben Cachiaras (24:09.654)
That's where we need clarity, like, let's get straight about that. Second, let's get straight about what our mission is. And the third is just like reminding ourselves, like what's really, really essential about our faith. And Rusty, you and I share a tradition here with Christian churches that have often, I'm gonna put you on the spot here, you have to do your restoration movement history now. What's the slogan that has been quoted for a couple hundred years at least that,

I'm talking about right here. What are you? Are you? Are you on it?

Rusty (24:43.26)
Well, let me see, I get these mixed up sometimes. Um, in essentials, grace and no, and essentials, unity and non-essential grace in all things love.

Ben Cachiaras (24:52.854)
Unity. Liberty, right? Yes. That's a B. It's not an A plus, but you got the idea. Yeah, it's just, I think it's actually this. It's so good. It should have been in the Bible. I don't know how it got left out. I think Paul just, it was there maybe in some original manuscripts, but I don't know what happened there. I think it's gold. It is the key. Well, it's the key to

Rusty (25:07.508)
Ha ha ha.

Rusty (25:11.9)
The editor's cut.

Ben Cachiaras (25:22.146)
keeping the band together, it's the key to staying married, at least to the same person. It's also the key to unity in Christ's church, to uphold the principles that I think we see in the New Testament, and it's in essentials, unity, and in the non-essentials, liberty or freedom, and then in all things love. So it just reminds us that there are some things that are so important and foundational.

that we've just got to be together on those things, but that is a very short list. It's a very short list. And it centers around who Jesus is and what he did on the cross and our identity and our unity in him. And the non-essential part is, by saying non-essential, liberty is a way of reminding us that, man, there's a long laundry list of other stuff. Now hear me, just because it's not essential,

Rusty (26:07.107)
Mm-hmm.

Ben Cachiaras (26:22.006)
doesn't mean it's not important. It doesn't mean we don't study the Bible and come to our conclusions and it's just not of the essential means it's of the essence of the faith. Like if you pulled it away you wouldn't even have the Christian faith anymore. There's a whole bunch of other stuff that we'd probably all agree well we might I don't know Rusty you and I disagree on you know women in ministry or the end times or the place of war and the Christian or whatever and we get to heaven you and I stand there and that's when you find out I was right.

Rusty (26:52.061)
Ha ha ha.

Ben Cachiaras (26:52.238)
And all joking aside, if we both go to heaven to figure it out, like who's right, it's not on the entrance exam to heaven, then it's a non-essential, it doesn't mean it's not important, so we're gonna study and all that stuff, but it just means we have to allow a range of freedom. And I think we've kind of forgotten this genius thing. Like, because if we have to have unity, supposedly, around every little thing, we never will. And that's why churches are so great at splitting and dividing and creating a new denomination.

Rusty (27:19.354)
Mm.

Ben Cachiaras (27:20.75)
I'll just go my way and you go yours, but that's not the vision of the New Testament church, which grappled with really difficult stuff. Like they grappled with ethnicity in Ephesians 2, and Romans 14 talks about like 10 commandment level of stuff they were disagreeing about. And at the end of the day, they always put things down into a non-essential category and they rose up to have unity around the centrality of Jesus and who he is. So.

Rusty (27:28.696)
Mm-hmm.

Ben Cachiaras (27:49.054)
I think all that says to me is when we go into an election cycle, I'm trying to help our people feel that, man, we don't have to agree on every little thing, but I do want to preach and lead in a way so that our disagreements that we will inevitably have don't have to become causes of division automatically. Because in the world, that's exactly what we're told. If someone disagrees with you, you know.

Rusty (28:10.47)
Mm.

Ben Cachiaras (28:16.138)
you know, nuts to them and so forth. We just gotta remember, this kind of reminder, another way of saying it is who's our real enemy, you know? It's not other Christians, it's not someone on the other side of the aisle. We have an enemy and he's playing us by getting us to just hate each other. And so, and I think if you wanna hear a little micro rant here, it's that I think, I believe, Rusty, that we have largely muddled and confused

Rusty (28:23.286)
Mm-hmm.

Ben Cachiaras (28:47.174)
uniformity and unity. Like a lot of churches just settle for basically being homogenous groupings of people who think, act, talk, look, smell, vote the same, which is not actually unity. It's just kind of sameness. And when you look at the challenge of the New Testament church, it's like, you know what? Jesus pulled together tax collectors and people who wanted to kill

Rusty (28:50.201)
Mm-hmm.

Ben Cachiaras (29:16.594)
Acts 2 is diverse and you know, heaven's gonna be diverse and it's just that I Think so the Bible is not afraid of like having people of different Persuasions in the same space but we kind of are and we've kind of just Mirrored a lot of the ways that the world tends to group up and I'm not trying to give myself or anyone else a big guilt trip for anything about the way our churches are formed, but

I think we do miss something if our churches are only just sort of reflections of the same sociological and economic and racial groupings that would naturally fall in a society where there is no Jesus. If our gospel isn't strong enough to get someone to love across the aisle or break down as Paul says the dividing wall of hostility between two Christians who are opposed, then it's no gospel at all.

Rusty (29:46.743)
Hmm.

Rusty (29:59.654)
Mm-hmm.

Rusty (30:08.698)
Right.

Ben Cachiaras (30:12.562)
And maybe that's part of why a watching world that's desperately hungry for something powerful and unifying isn't necessarily looking at the church as an example because when they look sometimes they just see, well, oh, that's a cluster of those kind of people that are just bound together by their own same sociological or political grouping. So I think it's a challenge for us to remember, man, when we remember what's essential, Jesus

man, we can cross all kinds of lines and really mean it and live it out when you say, and you stand up and preach, everyone's welcome at this church. And the more that we can express that, the more we look like the kingdom of God, and the more I think we have a radical, counter-cultural voice and witness in a very polarized society.

Rusty (30:48.679)
Right.

Rusty (31:03.248)
Okay, let me get really practical here and ask you a couple questions here as we kind of bring all this together. This is great stuff, and there are several pastors out there that just wrote their three-point sermon for Sunday, and they're all ready to roll off of that. That was great. So here's my question. How does somebody pray during this season? Because inevitably, if we're really far right or really far left, or if you like, we've got the right candidate.

Ben Cachiaras (31:15.05)
Yeah, great, great.

Rusty (31:32.08)
and that's gotta be God's candidate. We pray that God helps them win. And if that person doesn't win, we have all kinds of doubts about God. So how do you encourage your parishioners, your members of your congregation to pray during this season?

Ben Cachiaras (31:49.518)
That's a great question, man. And I actually, that's not hypothetical, is it? I mean, this is where, like, I am literally like, how do I do this? And people are asking me those, so it's the right question. I think it's also important, as we think about how we might answer it, to remember that pretty much the entire New Testament was written in a time when they were getting the stuffings kicked out of them as Christians by a very pagan government. It wasn't like,

Rusty (31:53.49)
All right.

Ben Cachiaras (32:18.494)
I don't think this emperor is a real enough Christian. No, no, it was like they were killing the Christians, okay? So I mean, whatever we think we've got by way of gap between where we wish we were and our opposing political candidates and so forth, it was much greater than that in the New Testament. And yet that's where it got, you know, they're like, hey, on the one hand, you are your own...

Rusty (32:25.704)
Right.

Ben Cachiaras (32:47.938)
people as people of God, you're citizens of heaven, you answer to a higher authority, yada, you know? And yet, pray for the king. And it's like, if they can hold it together, we can figure it out. So that's the first thing is like, it's not out of the question, it is part of Christian teaching to recognize this. And then maybe a second thing there is just like, I mean, kind of discipleship 101 kind of goes like this.

Oh, you want to follow Jesus? Great. So you probably should listen to what he teaches and do what he says. That's exactly what it means to be a Christian. Okay. Well, what's one of the main things Jesus teaches? Well, love God, love people, serve the world, love the Lord, you're God with all your hearts, whole minds. So you love your neighbor as yourself. What do you mean? Who's my, wait.

Who's my neighbor, Jesus? Well, I'll just make it clear, he says, love your enemies.

So how do I pray when I'm pretty sure that someone who might win or some, how do I even pray for my brother like in Christ who I can't believe would ever vote for that person?

Well, if we can't do anything else, we can always fall back on the teaching of Jesus. And remember that he calls us to more, he doesn't say tolerate your enemies, although that'd be a good place to start. He doesn't say stop yelling at your enemies on Facebook. He doesn't say stop joining in the fray and attacking full on vitriolic, someone who disagrees with you and challenging and questioning their faith in God because they do.

Rusty (34:20.98)
Hmm.

Ben Cachiaras (34:37.826)
He doesn't say any of that. You know what he says? He says, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. So if all we can do is grit our teeth and obey Jesus and pray for the people that we really consider, honestly, if we're truthful enemies politically, maybe that's where we start. Just like being disciples of Jesus and like doing what he told us to do. It turns out that if we do that, I don't think Jesus only wanted us to grit our teeth. It seems like

Rusty (34:40.517)
Hmm.

Rusty (34:57.245)
Hmm.

Ben Cachiaras (35:06.778)
I have found, and maybe you have too, when I start praying a prayer for someone like that and trying to love our enemies.

Ben Cachiaras (35:19.623)
My heart changes toward them.

And I can find that I can start disagreeing politically, but there is the possibility of still loving unconditionally. And if that's true, I can pray for everyone, including especially my enemies. So I think that's, I mean, that's maybe not the answer you were looking for, but that's where I like to start is right there because it's so foundational and fundamental. Now the other thing is if I can along the way.

Rusty (35:42.586)
Yeah, that's perfect.

Ben Cachiaras (35:52.458)
live out some of the basic Christian teaching and virtues of Jesus in my own life toward other political perspectives and even other Christians that I disagree with vehemently, like being kind and being humble, like just like showing respect for people and realizing that even though we have very divergent opinions on immigration or the way abortion should fall in the ranking of

pro-life concerns or care for the planet or which guy should be in office, even though I might have very different concerns, if I realize that just as I have very good reasons, I believe, for why I've landed where I am, and it's a complex of personal experiences, life background, where I grew up, and what I've studied, who's coached me.

and my position as a result of all of that, perhaps I could find it in me to say, I might not be the fount of all wisdom and the source of every single truth on the planet, and I might allow for the fact that someone, even though I can't comprehend how they could arrive at that position, they might just have arrived at it for reasons that are actually pretty good reasons.

You know, I can I tell you a quick story. We had in our home a study one time. We were trying to tackle some stuff over a two year period. We had really kind of turned out to be this really beautiful small group that was diverse in lots of ways. And and in this group, we had a. A white Baltimore City cop. And a buddy of mine who grew up in the city, black guy.

PhD in mathematics, but he grew up in the hood. And these two guys, and I don't know if you don't have to know a lot about American racial story right now to know that there's, this isn't just race, it's like worldview and economics and it could not have been further apart politically, you know? And here we are just sitting in my living room week after week, you know? And there were some tense times and some things like, well, I don't agree with that or.

Rusty (38:03.289)
Ha ha.

Ben Cachiaras (38:07.478)
First, and then finally, they got to know each other, love each other enough that they could start actually getting more offended. They could start saying, well, I think you're wrong and whatever. And I'll never forget, Rusty, the night that it was just some deeply kind of hurtful things were said by one of them and the other was less like, okay, I need to understand this because I know you. And what you're saying sounds like a soundbite. I've heard all this time. And like...

I just, I want to just write you off as an idiot, but I'm sitting here and I know you and I love you. Help me understand." And for the first time, they kind of heard past all of the cliches and all of the, if you don't agree with me, you're an idiot kind of mentality that we're discipled by on both CNN and Fox. And it was like a tear flowing moment for everyone in the room as they hugged it out in my living room and are still buddies to this day.

Rusty (38:43.081)
Hmm.

Rusty (38:51.73)
Right.

Rusty (38:55.56)
Hmm.

Rusty (39:03.976)
Wow.

Ben Cachiaras (39:04.63)
And I've always reminded, you know, that wouldn't happen without civility, kindness, humility, love, relationship. So if we wanna just reduce all of our opponents to idiots and join the fray, we can, and that's what a lot of Christians do, and just one more voice, you know, within the whole thing. But if we can respectfully disagree with a person

realize that there's still a creature created in God's image and has dignity. So instead I can teach society again. What if we went into the public square on social media and other places? Like teach people how to disagree respectfully again. Like I disagree with your idea, that's different than calling you an idiot. But we've kind of forgotten that nuance. Well, it's pretty important nuance, you know? Christians ought to lead the way in that. And I think, so all of that's my big answer to your thing.

Rusty (39:37.766)
Mm-hmm.

Rusty (39:54.128)
Right. Or evil. Right.

Ben Cachiaras (40:04.57)
We not only can pray, we've got a job to do to not just save the country and win the election. Our bigger job is to uphold the name of Jesus and realize that we've caused great damage to the name of Christ by the ways that we've gotten caught up in how important we think these things are. Jesus has paid a price. We have an opportunity during the election cycle to really be radical and do something different. Not be jerks. Be humble.

Rusty (40:31.896)
Right.

Ben Cachiaras (40:33.443)
You don't have to change your position one bit to be humble, unless you bought into the lie that you think meekness is weakness like the world tells us.

Rusty (40:40.988)
That's so good then, so good. Yeah, you look through, well you look through the last, you know, 2,000 years and you just see that the church has prevailed in times of political favor, you know, when Constantine made it the national religion, and then you see how the church has prevailed when it's outlawed. And Jesus' words continue to be true. He will...

Ben Cachiaras (40:44.43)
It's not easy to do, but it's easy to say, right? Yep.

Rusty (41:09.788)
build his kingdom and nothing will stand against it. And so this fear that we have that if we lose this election, then it is over for the church. We just minimize the words of Jesus because it's gonna continue going on. So.

Ben Cachiaras (41:22.53)
Amen, man. We've heard that every election. Yeah, like this one is more important than ever. And you know what you said about the thing about when Christians are kind of in power and when we're not the Lord's Church prevails. And that is so true. But you know what? His history would probably even lean a little bit harder on that and say, you know, the times when the church has actually been most pure and strong and beautiful has been when they didn't have any sort of government identity to hide behind. Like if we're not the big boys at the table.

Rusty (41:24.692)
Every election. Yeah. Yep.

Rusty (41:38.593)
the

Ben Cachiaras (41:52.426)
and we're kind of pushed to the fringes, oh no. Now all we have is Jesus and the gospel. It's like, we might just have to actually live out the kingdom of God instead of hoping we get enough votes. And so in other words, God uses even our, you know, no one wants to see our country stray any further from God, but just we can know the sovereignty of God is so big, like you said, Rusty, and empires rise and fall and grass withers and flowers fade, but the word of our God is gonna stand forever. And...

Rusty (41:58.908)
Ha ha ha.

Ben Cachiaras (42:22.127)
I would say...

I can't even remember when the election is, November, whatever. When it's over, your guy is going to have won or lost. But the old cliche is true, Jesus is still on the throne. And that's a perspective that we absolutely have to have, not in a way that just says, well, then none of it matters and we just only go in our little bubble and don't worry about the world going to hell. No, no, no.

We're still engaged, but we're not like wringing our hands like if we lose this, then we've lost everything, like you said. And whoever wins or loses on November 3rd, Jesus is still on the throne. And the church will win or lose based on how we behave between now and then. I firmly believe it.

Rusty (43:09.541)
That's perfect. Well, Ben, next time I'll have you on, we'll talk about something a little lighter.

Ben Cachiaras (43:15.694)
I hope so. I mean, what kind of a friend am I that the first time you invite me, it's this. But thanks anyway, man. Hey, it's going great.

Rusty (43:22.728)
We'll get back to the, uh, well, we'll do a breakdown of quarterback. Okay. And we'll talk about you.

Ben Cachiaras (43:27.658)
Hey, I'm all about it. I'm in.

Rusty (43:30.188)
Oh man. Buddy, I really appreciate it. Thank you so much and thanks for being one of the good guys and excited to see just what God continues to do over the next 200 years for Mountain Church.

Ben Cachiaras (43:39.986)
Yeah, thanks man. God bless you and every pastor and church Christian and disciple who's trying to figure out how to Help Jesus case in the next few months

Rusty (43:49.508)
Yeah, thanks brother.