Simple Faith with Rusty George

Following Jesus isn't always
easy, but it's not complicated.

Join us each week as we
work to make faith simple.

This is simple faith.

Welcome back to Simple Faith.

I'm Rusty George and we're continuing our
deep dive into relational apologetics.

In this five part mini series, we're
exploring how connecting with people

on a human level can open doors for
meaningful conversations about faith.

This is episode two, and today's focus is
on developing the empathetic ear, learning

to hear the heart behind the question.

In traditional apologetics, we're
taught to logically reason with those

who may disagree with our beliefs.

But this approach was used surprisingly
not that often by Jesus, even when

others initiated that with him.

So while we may read books on how to
engage with doubts and objections on

an intellectual level, what if the
real barriers are rooted in deeper

emotional or personal experiences?

What if we are trying to answer subjective
questions with objective answers?

Today we are exploring how truly
listening can reveal something deeper

and potentially far more powerful.

As we discussed last time,
Jesus modeled this beautifully.

Think again about the woman of the well.

He didn't start with a sermon.

He started with a simple human request.

And in that interaction, he uncovered
a wellspring of deeper needs.

Would you give me a drink?

Did you hear me?

That's bad, huh?

What you a Jew?

Ask for a drink from me,
A Samaritan and a woman.

I'm sorry.

I should have said please.

You know, it's not safe for you
to be alone out here nor you.

Why haven't you come with others?

Why so late in the day?

Don't women come to the wells
in the, the pool of the morning?

Yeah.

Well, none of them will be seeing
with me, so I have to come out.

No, in the heat.

Have so kindly reminded me.

Why won't they be seen with you?

Long story.

I, I'd still like a drink of
water if you can spare it.

Amazing what a parched throat will do.

Aren't I unclean to you?

Don't you be defiled by this vessel?

Maybe some of my people say that
about your women, but I don't.

Yeah.

And what do you say?

I say if you knew who I am.

He'd be asking me for a drink, really,
and I would give you living water.

Jesus saw beyond her immediate response,
he saw her history, her social isolation,

her yearning for something more.

Similarly, the questions people ask
us about faith often have layers of

unspoken emotions and experiences Hearing
someone's heart truly listening is not

only a skill, but it's relatively rare.

This is because people are less
likely to listen to someone else.

That they think might
not be listening to them.

William Uri is co-founder of
Harvard's program on negotiation.

In the following clip, he shares a
story of the time he was negotiating

between Ugo Chavez, then the leader
of Venezuela and the opposition.

Let's listen in.

Why is it so important to listen?

Let me tell you a story.

Some years ago I was in the country
of Venezuela, serving as a third

party between the government
and the political opposition.

At a time of intense conflict with
a lot of people fearing a civil war.

My colleague, Francisco Diaz and I had an
appointment with the President Ugo Chavez

at 9:00 PM at the Presidential Palace.

Finally at midnight, we were ushered
in to see the president who had his

entire cabinet raid behind him, and
he asked me, so Yuri, what do you

think of the situation going on here?

And I said, Mr.

President, I've been talking to.

Your minister's here and to
the opposition, and I think

you're making some progress.

Progress.

What do you mean progress?

He shouted, you're blind.

You're not seeing all the dirty
tricks those traitors are up to.

And he leaned in very close to my face and
proceeded to shout, what was I gonna do?

Part of me felt like
defending myself naturally.

But what good would it do for
me to get into an argument with

the president of Venezuela?

How would that advance peace?

So I just listened.

I gave him my full attention.

I listened to where he was coming
from, and President Chavez was known.

He was famous for making eight
hour speeches, but after 30 minutes

of me just nodding and listening,
I saw his shoulder slowly sag.

And he said to me in a very weary tone
of voice, so Yuri, what should I do?

That's the sound of a human
mind opening, opening to listen.

So I said, Mr.

President, it's almost Christmas.

The country needs a break.

Last year, all the festivities were
canceled because of the conflict.

Why not propose a truce this time so
that people can enjoy the holidays

with their families and after bat?

Everybody will maybe be in
a better mood to listen.

He said, that's a great idea.

I'm gonna announce that in my next speech.

His mood had completely shifted
how through the simple power of

listening, because I listened to him,
he was more ready to listen to me.

Y and his partner were ushered
into the meeting three hours late,

and then berated for 30 minutes
after an innocuous question.

But because Yuri was listening, he
didn't spend that time arguing, getting

defensive, or even checking out.

He was listening for Hugo Chavez's
heart, and when he heard it open the

door just a little bit, then William
was able to speak directly to Chavez.

Listening is such an effective bridge
because everyone wants to be heard.

But so few people are
actually good at listening.

Exactly.

And like with the woman at the
well, someone might challenge the

existence of a loving God in the face
of suffering or in light of science.

But behind that intellectual
objection could be the raw pain

of personal loss, or even just the
overwhelming busyness of leading an

individualistic or isolated life.

Simon Sinek, the author of Start
With Why talks about the very same

type of listening that William
Uy practiced in negotiations.

He calls it emptying the Bucket.

So even if we find what they're saying,
just reprehensible, right, you're

never gonna be able to actually have
dialogue until at least one of the

parties gets the opportunity to say
everything without judgment and, and

as she calls it, emptying the bucket.

And once person, somebody feels like
they've completely said everything.

Then they're more apt to listen to you.

But usually what we do is we defend
or we litigate or we interrupt.

We point out flaws in logic,
which is just frustrating.

And when you point out some flaws in
somebody's logic, 'cause we're all

imperfect when we speak, and we all
choose the wrong words at various times.

And that's not what I meant.

You know what I meant?

This is what we have to say.

Well what if you know what you
meant, then why don't you say what

you, you can see how this spirals,
but it's things like when somebody

says something, you know, and there
there's really easy ways to do it.

Things like, go on, tell me more.

What else?

And they keep talking and you go quiet.

They feel the space and tell me more.

Go on.

And eventually it's all out.

And then there's a safe space for
you to respond or to and express

yourself in a constructive way.

There is value in letting someone get
it off their chest not to vent and not

in a more malicious way, like to give
them enough rope to trip themselves up.

But to empty their bucket so
that they are ready to listen.

This was exactly what happened
with Yuri when he was being

yelled at by Hugo Chavez.

But if someone isn't actively emptying
their bucket, what should you do?

It starts with the power of asking
good questions, questions that

invite someone to share their own
perspective and the why behind it.

Mike Sherrard and his work on
relational apologetics emphasizes that

the goal isn't to win an argument,
but to understand the person.

He says the best questions are
those that prompt the other person

to explain their own position.

Instead of jumping in with our
pre-prepared answers, we need to become

curious Listeners, imagine someone says
all religions are basically the same.

Our instinct might be to
list the core differences.

But a more relational approach would
be to ask what makes you say that?

Or what aspects of different
religion seem similar to you?

So by asking open-ended questions, we
can create space for them to share their

voice, to articulate their understanding.

Even if it doesn't align with textbook
definitions, their view might be shaped by

cultural influences, personal encounters.

Or even misinterpretations.

I think this highlights the crucial
role of listening with empathy.

It's not just about hearing the words,
but also paying attention to the tone,

the pauses, and the nonverbal cues.

Mike Sherrard wisely points out
that when we truly listen, we can

often sense underlying emotions.

Is there frustration in their
voice, sadness in their eyes,

bitterness in their tone?

What is their body language saying?

And these are clues to
the deeper issues at play.

And speaking of body language,
it's important to pause

and take note of your own.

Is your heart rate going up?

Are you feeling attacked or defensive?

If you do notice that you're starting
to exhibit symptoms of defensiveness

or frustration, extend that pause.

Try adopting a posture of listening.

It might even be wise to, as
Lee Strobel puts it, try to

make a personal connection.

When someone feels genuinely heard
and understood, it will build

rapport and it lowers defenses.

They're much more likely to engage
with what we have to say when they

feel like we've really heard them.

Empathy requires us to try and see
the world through their eyes, even

if we don't share their beliefs.

People don't need you to believe what
they believe, but they do need you to

see why they came to that conclusion.

It's about acknowledging their
feelings and experiences as valid,

even if we interpret them differently.

All of this makes it sound like
relational apologetics is simple.

All you need to do is to invite someone
into community and listen to them

until they run out of things to say.

And then share the gospel.

And in some ways that's, that is true.

That's what makes relational apologetics
and the Celtic way of evangelizing feel

less like it's going against the grain.

But what do you do if you
can't hear someone's heart?

All you can hear is
just the regular stuff.

So how do we move beyond those surface
questions when it isn't coming naturally,

when you can't hear their heart?

Listen for the Holy Spirit.

Instead, here, T Wright shares
about the role of the Holy Spirit

in uniting us into holy community.

Wherever they go, the spirit goes with
them, which is why, in fact, most of the

controversies and difficulties in acts
arise in relation to temples in Athens, in

Ephesus, and finally in Jerusalem itself.

The point seems to be that the
community of Jesus followers is a

kind of movable temple movement with
God's spirit going with them, leading

them active in their midst and through
their witness wherever they go.

The New Testament seems to indicate
that we should expect the spirit to

be constantly at work, continually
challenging believers to new tasks,

to fresh holiness, to deeper and
more searching prayer to a boldness

of witness and a patient resolve
in building up Christian community.

It sounds like that what T Wright
is suggesting here is that the role

of the Holy Spirit is to unit us.

In holy community bound together
with Christ and with each other

like it says in Ephesians one 10.

And if it is the Holy Spirit that
calls unbelievers to Jesus, then

the Holy Spirit truly is our great
helper when it comes to both living

in community and in evangelism.

A community that is capable of listening,
a family or a group of friends that all

practice hearing hearts of each other, and
even those who don't yet believe in God.

Boy, that's a pretty
unstoppable community.

We know that God is there.

Wherever two or three are gathered,
we know that we are more likely to

hear the Holy Spirit through the Bible
and through spirit-filled believers.

Now, imagine putting all of those
things together, how powerful

and effective would that be?

Imagine having a community of
believers who listen to you, who

hear your heart, even when it
might not have much good to say.

Now, imagine introducing a lost friend
or son or daughter you care about

to that community of spirit-filled
listeners, even when you don't know

what's going on in the heart of this
person you love despite trying to hear it.

Imagine instead, when two or three of
you are listening both to this person's

heart and to the guidance of the Holy
Spirit, that's life changing stuff.

Okay, so pause.

Let's revisit the potential concern.

Does focusing on empathy mean we neglect
the intellectual substance of our faith?

Like does it mean we just give up
the truth and the reason behind it?

Absolutely not.

I recall preaching a message on relational
evangelism one time only to get negative

emails from people because I didn't talk
about all of the logic I needed to share.

But relational apologetics recognizes
that hearing the heart and understanding

the emotional context actually increases
our ability to engage intellectually.

It helps us tailor our responses
to them and the specific needs and

barriers of the person we're talking to.

It also enables us to know
when they're ready to hear.

Just as when Peter told Jesus at the last
Supper that he was ready to die for Jesus.

Jesus hurt his heart and knew that Peter
actually was ready to die for him, but

he wasn't ready to live for him because
Peter wasn't ready to hear that yet.

Jesus had to wait until after
Peter had denied him three times

to ask Peter if he loved him.

Even then, he had to ask him
three times until Peter was ready

to truly hear Jesus' profound
offering of forgiveness and purpose.

When he asked Peter to feed his
sheep, that's when Peter finally

heard that gospel, even after
seeing his resurrected Lord.

So knowing the heart of the issue allows
us to be more relevant and compassionate

in our intellectual engagement.

If someone is wrestling with the problem
of evil because of a personal tragedy.

We might wanna start by acknowledging
their pain, sharing how Christian

faith grapples with suffering, rather
than immediately just launching into

abstract, philosophical arguments.

The goal isn't just to win a
debate or present a flawless,

logical argument in a vacuum.

I mean, it's really not
about to make a point.

It's about to make a difference.

It's to connect with the whole person.

Their intellect and their emotions in
a way that allows them to genuinely

consider the claims of Christ.

This is how we as a community can
create soil that is more fertile.

This is like the parable of
the sower, but with a twist.

We know that it is the Holy Spirit that
germinates the seed and reveals the truth

of Christ redemptive work, and we know
that it is an act of faith that allows

someone to grow in the light of God.

But we are the harvesters
Together as a community, we can

clear the rocks from the soil.

We can create an environment where the
listeners are able to hear that truth.

This is often what parenting is.

It's presenting truth and
knowledge, as well as preparing

our children to be able to hear.

So this aligns perfectly with Greg
Coco's concept of pre evangelism.

Before we can effectively share the
gospel, we need to prepare the ground

and a vital part of that preparation.

I.

Is by understanding the
individual right in front of us.

It's about removing the stones from
the field and identifying the stones

in their shoes, the obstacles, the
hurts, the misunderstandings that

are preventing them from seeing the
relevance of the Christian message.

By truly listing with empathy, we can
begin to remove those stones when we

understand what it's like to walk in their
shoes, their experiences, their doubts.

We can then communicate the gospel in
a way that speaks directly to their

specific context and their personal
concerns, showing them how it addresses

the deepest longings of the human heart.

The empathetic ear is not just a
tool, it's an expression of Christian

Love and Christ-like humility.

It's about seeing the image of God in
every person and valuing their story

even when it differs from our own.

Let's consider together think
about a time when you felt really

understood by someone truly and
deeply understood, especially when

you were sharing something vulnerable.

How did that experience impact you?

In our conversations about faith,
how can we be more intentional about

creating that same sense of being heard
and understood for the other person?

What are some practical ways we
can show empathy even when we don't

fully understand or agree with
someone's perspective on faith?

Take some time this week to practice
active and empathetic listening.

Pay attention not just to the
words, but to the heart behind them.

And as we look ahead to our next
episode, let's consider this, how do

we maintain empathy and understanding
when someone's worldview or experiences

seem completely opposed to our own?

How do we find common ground when it
feels like there's a huge gulf between us?

That's a critical question, and it's
what we'll be tackling in episode three.

Join us next time on Simple Faith as
we explore the art of finding common

ground in relational apologetics.

Thanks for being with us on Simple Faith.

Connect with us@pastorrustygeorge.com

for more resources.

Until next time, let's keep it simple.