Simple Faith with Rusty George

Narrator: Welcome to Leading Simple with Rusty George. Our goal is to make following Jesus and leading others a bit more simple. Here's your host, Rusty George.

Rusty George: Hey, thanks for tuning in to Leading Simple. I'm Rusty George. I'm so glad that you are joining us today. We have a real treat for you. Uh, Kyle Idleman makes, uh, living under a microscope, simple. Kyle planted Real Life Church, the church that I am at, back in October of 2000. 2 years later, he went on to join the staff of Southeast Christian Church, where he is now the lead pastor there. And the church is one of the largest churches in America. Kyle is not only a gifted communicator. He's also a gifted writer. He's the best selling author of the book, Not A Fan and his latest book. One at a Time we will talk about in this episode and a variety of other things. It's such a treat to have Kyle on the program. Uh, today we are sponsored by one of our favorite groups called Stadia. stadiachurchplanting.org and Stadia's mission is to plant churches that intentionally care for children.

Why is that? Because as more churches close, their doors, fewer people are experiencing the life changing hope of Jesus and stadia, prepares leaders to start healthy churches that intentionally reach the next generation of believe. Spreading the hope of Jesus farther than ever before. And their motto is they won't stop until every child has a church.

For more information, go to stadia, church, planting.org. You may be somebody who thinks, I think I'd like to play in a church, or maybe you think I'd like to support those who are planting churches and they desperately need your help. So go to stadia church, planting.org to find out more well. Can't wait for you to hear my conversation with Kyle.

So here we go. Kyle Idleman. Thank you for finally being on the podcast. I can't believe, uh, we've done this many episodes and not been able, uh, to pull this together for you. And I, I mean the, the time zone thing really messed us up, so you're yeah.

Kyle Idleman: And by pull this together, you mean you get around to inviting me on,

Rusty George: Well, I wasn't gonna say it that way, but you know, I, uh, I had some issues to deal with. Um, but seriously, I had to laugh cuz your assistant would always say "How, how about, uh, 9:00 AM for us?" And I'd say, "Well, that's 6:00 AM for us. So I'm not doing that." But, uh, Hey, tell us about yourself for our listeners that don't know who you are. Give us Kyle, you know, in 90 seconds where you're from and what you do.

Kyle Idleman: Uh, sure. So I grew up in a town that, you know, well, rusty, uh, Joplin, Missouri. Mm. Uh, there's a surprising amount of us that are from Joplin. And, um, so that's my hometown, small town in Missouri that, um, I, I kind of grew up as a pastor's kid a little bit. My dad was the president of the seminary of the Bible college that, that you and I both went to.

Uh, but it had a little bit of that pastor kid feel to it. And, um, and so. Um, my parents grew up or I grew up with my parents encouraging ministry, but never kind of putting any pressure on me to go that direction. And, and I graduated from high school. And if you would've asked me, what do I not wanna do? I would've said, oh, I don't wanna be a preacher.

Like I don't, I don't want to be a pastor mm-hmm . Um, but you know, that sometimes has a way of. um, go in the opposite direction. You think it will has a way of testing God a little bit, I think. And, um, and he, he knew what the plan was. I, I was a freshman in college when I started preaching at this church called Christ Church of Perseverance. Have you ever heard of that?

Rusty George: What town was that in?

Kyle Idleman: It was outside Carthage, Missouri. It's about 15 minutes from, uh, where we went to school and , and, and it is called Christ Church of Perseverance cuz it required some perseverance. I mean there, there were like, uh, 30 people that went to this church. And they asked me to preach on a, uh, Sunday to fill in. Did you ever do that? Kinda-

Rusty George: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Every weekend.

And they said, they'd pay me 50 bucks. And I'm like, well, I'll do it for 50 bucks. And yeah. Uh, it was like 19 at the time. And, and I got done with that sermon and they said, Hey, do you wanna come back next week? I didn't do that. I'm like, yeah, I'll come back next week.

And they like, you wanna come back next week? And I'm like, yeah, I'll come back next week. And then like maybe five or six weeks into it. I walked out of the sanctuary and in the lobby, uh, on the bulletin board, there was this piece of paper that said Kyle Idleman, senior minister and they never asked me about it.

Like there was never any discussion. It just kind of got assumed. And I, you know, in some ways, That calling for me was exactly what I needed. Like God tricked me into it a little bit, cuz I was resistant to it and he, uh, opened that door for me there and um, and I ended up loving it, fell in love with caring, for, and pastoring.

Those people fell in love with preaching. Um, my wife and I got married while we were, uh, in school. And then, um, We moved out to where you are. So, uh, so I came out there in, uh, after I graduated from college, 98, 99. And, um, and we had one, uh, child at the time and worked with shepherd of the Hills there and then with, uh, helping start real life.

And then, um, we moved out here. Um, at the end of 2002 to Southeast in Louisville, Kentucky, where I'm at now, uh, we have four kids got two of my kids who are married and I love my son-in-laws, which is awesome. I did not know that, uh, was a. What's gonna happen. Uh, so I'm really grateful for that. My oldest two girls, uh, are married and then I have one daughter who's serving God in South Africa and then my son is 17 and, um, he's gonna graduate next year.

Wow. That is so exciting. Okay. So man, so much stuff to dig into here. I wanna go back to your days at Christ church of perseverance uh, was that the name of the city? Is that how they

got that term? Uh, no, I don't know. I suppose, you know, perhaps because perseverance is a biblical word, however, I never heard it used in the title of a church before.

No, it sounds more like a, you know, a Catholic church or something. So, um, any funny stories from, uh, those, those little churches? I know when I, when I taught in, you know, Dexter, Kansas Anderson. Missouri. Um, so, oh man, Fort not Fort Collins, Collins, Missouri. I dunno if you ever did that one as well, you just ran into the nicest people and yet the oddest people at times, with some of the things that they would talk about or say or expect, um, and then

Kyle Idleman: you find out that they're related in some

Rusty George: weird ways.

Oh, everyone's related. Absolutely. Or had some kind of falling out over a piece of land or a cow. Uh, so , those were great stories.

Kyle Idleman: I found out, uh, in my job description for that I was to preach on the weekends and then I was to mow the grass . So I , I, I preached, I mowed the grass and, and then, and in some ways that was great training, right?

Like for ministry and keeping the focus on, um, on serving my, my favorite moment in was on a weekend, we would sing happy birthday song, kind of a Christian version of happy birthday. We would do it every weekend. And after we would sing it, we would say, is it anybody's birthday? recognize. And so I suggested I'm like, Hey, what if we asked if it was someone's birthday first?

And if it is someone's birthday, then we'd sing the song. But if it's not, let's not, let's not sing the song. Let's ask first. And that was voted down. So ,

Rusty George: I just, I'm sure that cost a, a lot of consternation there in amongst the board. Yes. Birthday

Kyle Idleman: songs and then fledging allegiance to the flags. The

Rusty George: whole thing.

Yes. Yeah. And the Bible mm-hmm oh my goodness. That's really

Kyle Idleman: good. I remember a

Rusty George: Dexter that we, I don't know what happened, but somebody wanted to get baptized. So apparently they were. New to the family and, uh, which was very exciting. And so they had a baptistry, but we had to clean out all the Christmas decorations that were

Kyle Idleman: stored in it.

so we could baptize this woman,

Rusty George: which they filled with a garden hose. So it was crisp that day was

Kyle Idleman: with some glitter floating around

Rusty George: in it. Oh, of course. Yeah. A little bit of MIS toe. Well, uh, obviously you felt this call to go out to California and a lot of our listeners are church planners. Um, tell me about.

why California? I mean, did you just, did you just feel like your heart was breaking for planning a church out there? Did somebody talk you into it? Did Dudley have dirt on you? I mean, H how, how did you get to, you know, a kid from Joplin, Missouri who didn't wanna be a preacher decides to plan a church in California?

Kyle Idleman: Well, I, I didn't know anything about church planting. If I had, I probably would not have had the. Confidence to do it. I, you know, it was one of those situations where, you know, your naivete works in. You know, works to your benefit, cuz I, I didn't know what I didn't know. And it definitely gave me a false sense of confidence, you know, to, to put some scripture with that though, you know, as Paul says to the Corinthians, you know, God's strength has made perfect in weakness and you know, he chooses the weak things and, and I, I think that was definitely true, you know, he, he had plenty of opportunities to demonstrate that.

And, um, I didn't know much about church planning because I don't think at that time. There was as much of a movement around it where you could go to a conference or read a book. I'm sure there were church planning books. I, I hadn't been exposed to that. And, um, so I, I knew I wanted to preach and, um, and I knew I didn't wanna be a student pastor.

Like I, I knew I wouldn't do very well with that. And, um, and, and so I thought, well, I'll. Plant a church because I, uh, no one, no one was gonna hire me to, to be a, a pastor preacher. I was like 23 or, um, and, and so I had that connection with Dudley and she, the Hills church. And, um, I knew how, I mean, I understood, um, intuitively how important it would be to be in an area that had a, you know, it was a really growing area that needed.

At church. And, um, and so at that time, you know, the, the Santa Clarita valley was, was growing tremendously and it's continued to, but I, I recognized that, Hey, this, this would be a great opportunity to, to plan a church in an area where, where there's a need. And, um, and, and God opened up the doors and, and kind of, uh, put it together.

But I, you know, I didn't, I didn't know what, I didn't know. .

Rusty George: Yeah, I, I think that's, uh, that that's a wise statement and a good statement. And it's a good thing for most church planners, because, uh, if you, if you know what you're getting into you typically back out, I I've never understood the people that plant multiple churches.

These are the people that have decided I am a glut for punishment because it's, it's difficult. And I, I often. Thank you, whether you know it or not for having done this, because I thought I might be able to be, well, I thought I might be interested in planning a church. You and I had lunch. I don't know if you remember this.

We were both speaking at preaching and teaching convention. What do you remember in Joplin? And, uh, I was working in Kentucky. You were planted this church out in California. We went to some Chinese food place there in Joplin, which is where Chinese food is best. Yeah. and, uh, I said, so tell me about plant a church, cuz I thought I wanted to do it.

And uh, little did. I know you did the heavy lifting and I got to come in and, and uh, and take it from there. And I, I think boy, I could not have done that. Well, I, what you did

Kyle Idleman: was perfect. I, I would consider us to be co planters in, in that, in real life church. Cause you know, you, you came into it and uh, you know, I was not, I was not in that role very long.

And, and you, you came. when we were really starting to do some of the hard work. Um, you know, we were meeting in a movie theater and we're just getting some of our leaders, lay leaders established, just kind. , you know, finding our, our, our, uh, footing a little bit. And mm-hmm um, and I think God ordained that lunch because that put on my radar that, oh, this is something, um, you know, that you would be interested in.

And, and I felt such tremendous relief had, had prayed so much about. You know, I hear a church planner sometimes talk about when you start a church, it feels a little bit like a child, you know, it's uh, and I related to that, especially at the time we had had, we just had our third daughter and it felt like, um, it felt, it felt like the church was, you know, was a child where you're just concerned about it being cared for.

And, um, and I just remember. Literally crying with, uh, relief when God called you to it. And, um, and really, you know, and, and I can see much, clearly, much more clearly in hindsight that, you know, your strengths for that season were exactly what the church needed. Like it's his, it, you know, it's his child.

It's not ours. It's not mine. Mm-hmm it's and. And so it's, it's fun in hindsight to see how well he took care of his church.

Rusty George: Well, I, I think that is the, the great, I don't know, leveler for all of us when it comes to our expectations and I it's been so great for me to know, Hey, this was going before I got here and it'll be going after I'm gone.

So I'll do what I can with it. Um, and I think that reminds us how, how it really is God's church. So tell me about, I mean, you had just one of the most unique experiences in. You, you came out to a great thriving church at shepherd of the Hills and Dudley gave you such great permission yeah. To teach, to build relationships and to take whoever you wanted.

Uh, Dudley's been on the podcast. We had him on for our, our 20th anniversary as a church. And you were kind enough to, uh, to share some things on our, our, uh, weekend service as well. But I, I just remember thinking not many pastors who plant churches out of their church are as open handed as Dudley was.

How, how did that relationship start? And then how did, how did real life kind of begin out of shepherd of the Hills? Cause I think this is really great for, for pastors who are wanting churches to be planted from them, uh, because he did it the right way.

Kyle Idleman: Well, you know, the two things about Dudley is that he is incredibly generous and he.

Uh, very much an evangelist, you know, he is very generous and he loves to win people to Jesus. And, you know, those two things came together for my benefit , you know, because yeah. Uh, he was just incredibly generous. And, and to use your language of open handed, um, I remember, uh, coming there, I would've been like 22, 21, 22.

When I first got there and, um, and he, he said, Hey, you know, whatever you need, feel free to shoulder tap, whoever you want to. No, nobody is, uh, off limits. If you wanna try to encourage, you know, our best leaders to come with you, then go for it. And, um, and so, so he was incredibly, um, generous that way. And then, you know, he, he has helped me.

Uh, over the years, be much more, uh, intentional with evangelism and reaching people who, you know, don't know Jesus who don't have a church, uh, home. So tho those qualities are, you know, For, I've heard a church is trying to start a church, 30 minutes down the road, you know, that's, uh, that that's, that's huge.

And he was humble. He shared, I mean, again, I was a kid and he, he let me get up there to preach shepherd on the Hills on a regular basis and, and tell everybody at the church, Hey, here's what I'm doing loved to have you come with me. Uh, you know, I took all of that for granted at the time. I'm like, well, of course this is what senior investors do.

Yeah. And, uh, and I didn't realize how rare that is. But, uh, um, but yeah, he was very gracious

Rusty George: that way. Uh, one of my favorite stories you tell is about, you know, cuz Dudley is known for a little bit of theatrics at times, if needed to prove a point mm-hmm . Um, and I, I love the story you tell about how he gave you an example of what he did not want to see happen after the church began.

Can you share that story with

Kyle Idleman: us? Yes. I don't know that I've done this publicly, but , I would be glad to. So, um, so when I got there, he was on sabbatical and, uh, um, I wasn't sure what to do. So I just, I literally sat in my office and played video games. Cause I had no idea where to start or what to do. And I thought, well, when he gets back from his sabbatical he'll, he'll tell me what I need to do to go plant this shirt.

He'll, you know, he'll have a task list for me and. He'll walk me through it. So he gets back, uh, and then when he comes back into town, he invites me up to his house. And so I had, I was driving this like, uh, oh, uh, 1990 something, Plymouth breeze that was not in great shape. And so I had a little trouble getting past the guard at the gate, but I made it up.

I made it up into, to, uh, to his house and I, I knocked on the door and, um, he opened the door, invited me in and then he stepped outside of his own house. And shut the door. And then he knocked on his own door and I opened that. I had no idea what was happening that no, you know, I, I didn't understand. And, um, and then he said, Hey, so here's what I don't want to have happen.

You know, I don't want, um, a. Two weeks before the church is supposed to start, you know, to, for you to come knock on my door and tell me, um, that we're not ready to go and you know, I, I just, I drove down out of his neighborhood and thought, oh my goodness, what have I gotten myself into? Um, but he, he could not have been more encouraging and support.

Along the way. And then people like, um, Dave Ferguson, uh, came alongside of me and helped, helped me know, okay, here's what you actually need to do. You know, I remember Dave sending me kind of a task list of things like, okay, for the next nine months, here's what you need to have done, you know, eight months out, seven months out, six months out.

And, um, uh, That was a huge help. So getting connected to a few people like, like him, uh, as coach, as a coach made a big difference.

Rusty George: Yeah. And Dave's been a, a guest on the show as well and great resources out there. We're working with them right now to plant more churches in California. Um, I, I don't think our listeners understand how.

What a blessing that was from Dudley, because unfortunately there are church PLA there are pastors out there that wanna plant churches, but then they follow that pastor around in the lobby and tell people, yeah, don't go with them. Or you can't have these people. They're my best givers or my best friends or whatever.

But for Dudley to say, take whoever you want. Um, and, and start this thing is, is what made it happen? And it set the DNA for real life. Which allowed us to do the same thing to plant mission, uh, out in Ventura. And we had people go out there and get them started. And, you know, here they are 10 years old, they baptized 120 people at Easter and that's awesome.

You know, they're launching new locations. So that, that. Little experience you had there at Dudley's front door, which I always thought it'd be funny if you had just locked him out, you know, but you know, that's, that's for another time, but, uh, that, that really set the DNA for a lot of churches there to make that happen.

Well, I I'd love to, to shift gears a little bit here, because you mentioned something that I've. I want to hear about, I don't think I've ever asked you this, but, but you grew up under a microscope living in a fishbowl basically because, you know, in the town of Joplin, which is small and has a, uh, a Bible college era, Ozark Christian college, which is well known in the community and a father who was the president of that college, which was well known in the town.

He was well known in the town. The name Idleman, uh, was well revered in the Christian Church and in churches around there. And here you are as, um, you know, Iman's son, the son of the president, son of a pastor. Um, how did you live under that microscope? And, and were there moments you resented it? How did it prepare you for living in a fishbowl now as a pastor of one of the countries, largest churches at Southeast.

Kyle Idleman: Yeah. Do you remember when I was in high school? Um, I, I I'm sure you wouldn't remember, but, um, I remember coming and staying at the college for a weekend, um, when you were there and I, so I grew up, oh no, you know, around, you know, the students and around the professors in a way that made me really love the school.

Uh, you know, Which which helped, like I didn't resent it. I didn't resent that at all. And I see now as a pastor with pastor's kids, you know that if, if your kids love the church, it goes a long way to, to helping offset some of the unique challenges of, uh, being on in the spotlight, being in the fishbowl.

Um, but my parents never. Never pressured me in that way. Like, we would have some things I, I guess I should say, you know, like when we were, when we were in public, you know, we were expect to have a smile on our face for the most part, but, but I didn't connect that to, you know, who he was or, you know, uh, being, being in the fishbowls.

Uh, and when my dad would pray for me at night, like, you know, he, he'd never, he would never pray, you know, That, um, I would follow in his footsteps. He never, he never had expectations or pressure that, um, you know, that my, my life would, would only be fulfilled if it was, it would administer in some way. So, you know, he, I just never felt that pressure from them.

And, um, and I'm grateful for that. I, I think you. I, I became used to it. So now I don't really think much of it, you know, when, when I'm in town or, or running around and, and people, I don't really know, stop and, and talk with me or, you know, I don't, I don't really think much of it. I do think it helped kind of prepare me for that.

Um, you know, I think some of the challenges that most pastors kids have, I had, you know, I I'd needed to, uh, find my faith and make it my own. I needed to you. Uh, work at authenticity and, um, um, you know, understand brokenness a little differently. Mm-hmm , you know, so I, there were some of those things that I think would be true for, for most pastor's kids.

Um, but, but my parents just never put a lot of pressure on me to like, here's, what's expected of you. Um, and, and so I'm, I'm grateful

Rusty George: for that. Tell me a little bit more about understand brokenness differently.

Kyle Idleman: um, one of the things I love the most about being a pastor is being able to meet somebody in a place of brokenness and vulnerability.

And that, that feels like a, like a sacred privilege to me. Like I love, I love the privilege of that space in people's lives. I think one of the reasons that means so much to me is I avoided that. For, you know, most of my spiritual journey, like, I, I didn't necessarily feel like that was, uh, safe or I knew people, people had expectations or, um, you know, I didn't, I didn't know how to be that way.

And so now when the church is that way, um, I, it's my favorite thing. It's my favorite thing about being, being a pastor. Um, But it took me a while and coming to California helped teach me that. You know, I think part of that is the difference between the Midwest and the west coast. Um, you know, being in a church plant allowed me to spend more time with, um, you know, with people who were broken and, and had no church back.

I remember sitting, uh, you know what? I remember sitting in this new member class. I don't remember what we called it, but, uh, we were meeting after. Church on a weekend and everybody was going around and sharing their story. I remember this guy, uh, who, uh, had taken notes on my sermon and he had his sermon notes out next to him.

And I had been teaching from the book of acts and, and he had written down X. He thought he didn't know the word. X didn't know what it meant. And he had written down X every time I. Said, you know, some scripture reference from act. He thought I was saying X and, and then he shared his testimony in that group and, um, his story of, of brokenness.

And he'd recently gotten out of, um, an addiction recovery center. And I remember being in that room and watching how after he did that. Each person around the table did the same thing. Hmm. And, um, I began to notice in that group that, you know, if the first person who went was like, you know, uh, had more of a, you know, kind of church background and wasn't very vulnerable.

There wasn't much brokenness, so nobody else would either. But if that first person would do it. Then everybody else would do it, that there's something really contagious about brokenness of, about vulnerability. And, um, and it's taught me as a pastor to, um, to do that intentionally, like to, instead of shying away from that, instead of avoiding it, like.

I would not only find so much more freedom for my soul, but it would also be an opportunity for other people to discover that as, as well. But it took that took me a while. I, I certainly, I certainly did not understand that, um, until I was, was actually serving in the church,

Rusty George: you know, we, we talk a lot about, uh, with our communicators, the role of self disclosure.

And, you know, when you're teaching to share a little bit of your own personal pain. And I think, you know, what you just alluded to was sometimes when you come from a background like you, or even myself of growing up in the church, you maybe don't have a lot of that kind of, well, I used to ride with hell's angels and I killed man just to watch him die kind of stories.

So. it, it, how do you identify other than just listening? How do you come across with vulnerability in your teaching? You know, trying to act like, well, I've experienced everything you have, but also relating to people's pain because at the end of the day, we all have pain. So how have you been able to do that?

Even though you don't have a lot of those stories, Hey, let me interrupt this episode for just a second. Would you help plan a church today? You can do that in a very simple way. Go to stadia church, planting.org today to find out more,

Kyle Idleman: all right.

Rusty George: Back to the. How have you been able to do that even though you don't have a lot of those stories?

Kyle Idleman: Well, I, I think there's two parts to this one. It's important to not use stories that, um, um, that make it clear that you don't understand it. So let me give you an example. I preached this past weekend on anger and. I should have had a, a more personal, more vulnerable story in, in that sermon. Instead, I told this story about moving into our first neighborhood and the guy's lawn next to me was like, imaculate like no weeds, no dandelions, you know, checkered pattern.

And that I, I, my lo my wife loved that guy's grass. And I just did not like the, I never met him. Wanted to know him, didn't care to get to know him because of his grass. And, you know, and I, I was making the point in the sermon that I wasn't really mad at him. I was mad at me that his grass was an indictment on, you know, on my, on my lack of responsibility.

And, um, and, and I finished with that sermon this weekend and I. Yeah was a huge miss I, you know, my example of anchor was, Hey, I'm mad at the guy for having a good yard. So that, that is a good example of where that's, that's not very vulnerable self disclosure, like, but if I can, I can flip that. I, a few years ago, I, I told a story about losing my temper and, and punching a.

In, um, in our closet door and covering it up with a mirror and, you know, wanting to forget about it and pretend like it never happened. And I'd gotten onto, into an argument with my wife about something I know what it was about, but I don't have permission to say it. Uh, so, and I, I punched a hole in this door and tried to, to cover it up.

And, uh, and I, I was preaching a sermon on grace and I knew God wanted me to, to confess that to the church. I could not shake it. I didn't want to, um, I was embarrassed by it. You know, I covered it up cause I didn't want, I didn't even want my own kids to know. I did that. And um, and I told my wife, you know, Hey, thank God wants me to share this.

I, I was hoping she would say. I don't want you to, like, because I need to say, sorry, God, you know, what do you want me to do? I gotta honor my wife in this, but she's like, no, if you feel like that's what God should want you to do, then you should do it. And so I, I got up that, that weekend and I talked about punching a hole in the wall and I walked out.

Didn't want to, but I walked out into the lobby area afterwards. And, um, yeah, I had a, a guy come up to me and, and tell me his story, a whole in the wall. And I looked up and there's six, eight people in line. Um, all of them wanting to share this, all of them of the same gender, by the way, of course, but, but they all, they all had this hole in the wall story and, um, you know, it was an incredibly powerful moment.

And to this day, like it's, it's one of the things that people most remember or talk. With me when they talk about a, a sermon or a story, like they remember that moment. And, and, you know, I, I, I know the test of vulnerability is sometimes saying something and afterwards thinking, I wish I wouldn't have said that.

And, and, and, and so I wanna be able to not every week, but on a regular basis, li listen to a sermon and think I probably. I wish I wouldn't have said that. Like, it, it felt like a little too much. I, I, I just think very rarely do, do we go too much that that's at least true with my generation. Maybe the younger generation needs different guardrails, um, because they're more comfortable with it, but, but for me, um, I rarely would step over the line and I, I probably needed to more often on that.

What do you, what, how do you coach your, your

Rusty George: next? Yeah, I, I think that, uh, we talk a lot about what's the root behind it all. You know what what's the, a lot of times it is pride or it's anger to worry or, um, you know, approval addiction. Okay. We can all relate to that. Even if we haven't done the certain things, but I, I totally agree.

I mean, the things that people still talk about around here are, you know, the time I talked about my brother-in-law, who I hated and how I dealt with that. Hmm. Um, how I, you know, Did the wrong thing at a red light versus the right thing. You know, those you're right. Those moments that we pushed it a little further and, uh, we felt uncomfortable, but it, but it was good.

I wonder if 10 years from now, people in our line of work will be talking about. Well, how do you not share so much? Yeah. yeah. And because you're now losing credibility with your audience, you know, it seems to be this pendulum that swings back and forth. Um, you know, one of the, the, the unique things about your story is that you, you know, you planted a church, but you also.

took over a church and you followed not just one legend, but two. And for those that don't know the history of Southeast, I mean, Bob Russell is a rockstar in the Christian Church world in the church world and was there for 40 years and did an incredible job and built this amazing organization, but had his eye on transition 20 years prior and brought in this great young kid named Dave stone, who grew in to be this great senior pastor to take over from him.

The transition was seamless and it was well documented and studied and, and kind of the worlds we we live in, but then they identified you to be the next guy. So here you are gonna be the third in line. And the transition went incredibly smooth. What did they do? Right. Cuz a lot of churches right now are trying to figure out how to transition and, and it doesn't often go that well.

Kyle Idleman: Yeah. I, I. Bob brought Dave into that role and began to share a lot of, not just the preaching, but the leadership with him at a time where that was really unusual. And nowadays you, you see guys who will do that more often because they wanna share the load. Like they don't wanna preach every weekend and they, you know, they're, they're living a healthier balanced life, right?

That, that, wasn't why Bob brought. Bob would have been glad to preach every week. Yeah. Like that. That's not why he, he brought him in because he recognized that for the health of the church, the good of the church that it needed to not just be around a personality, like yeah. He understood that. I think maybe the church was around 4,000 at that time.

And he, he understood that. It would be healthier for the church if there, if it was a shared platform. And so that value made for a much more seamless and it wasn't, but a much more seamless transition, uh, you know, down the road because that, that was. You know that that was the motivation for it.

Initially it was one. And then, then Bob and Dave both transitioned out at, I, I I'll get this wrong, but like it's set 61 and 59. Some, something like that. You know, they, they both easily could have gone another 4, 5, 6, 7 years. Um, and, and would've had a lot of pressure to do that. You know, their, their peers and, you know, the leadership in the church for both of those guys, would've encouraged them and pushed them.

Um, Hey, it's too soon. It's too early, but they both recognize, you know, that's the time to do this. And, um, you know, I know that's not true for, for everyone, but I do think that was, uh, A significant reason why the transitions have gone really healthy is they didn't wait until everyone's thinking, when's it gonna be?

You know, they, they transitioned out during a time, uh, that was earlier than most people would've expected. Um, one of the things that Dave did for me, is he almost immediately when he became senior pastor, you know, he, he almost immediately started having me preach half the time. Um, and he made me an elder with him, which in our leadership structure, uh, was a pretty significant statement to the rest of the church and to the staff.

Um, so there's only two, two staff people that would've been elders, you know, just, um, him and myself. So. You know, those things were very strategic. He, he, you know, he knew what it was like to be in my seat. And in my position, I benefited from that greatly. Um, uh, our friendship was and is very real, which, you know, that goes a long way.

Uh, I, I always knew he was. You know, in my corner, I always knew he was, you know, um, cheering me on and I, I always felt that way towards him. You know, there were a lot of things we would've done different, you know, there are plenty of things where I would've thought, or I would think to myself, yeah, that's not how I would do it, but I always had tremendous respect for him.

And, um, you know, wanted, wanted him to do really well. So. I was, you know, that, that humility from both of them. Um, I, I just can't say enough about that. I, that that is, that was very real and authentic. And, uh, you know, I would've left a long time ago, had at NA

Rusty George: you know, what's interesting about watching you over the years.

I've always known. You could teach, uh, you're a gifted communicator. You always have been, even back in the old days, I listened to a lot of your messages in the early days of real life, because I was remember the cassette ministry. That was the idea set up out there in the lobby. Well, I got all of those tapes and they eventually became CDs.

That was a huge, huge, uh, uh, step for us to transition to that. And I listened to a lot of those cuz coming into real life, I wanted to know what did they. What, what were they used to? What, what do they listen to? You were a great teacher at 22, and now at, you know, 42 or however old you are, it's not surprising.

You continue to get better and you are teaching your videos. All the, this is great, but I've really been impressed with your leadership instincts. Um, and I know you have a team around you and, and they help you, but what has helped your leadership development? The most. Was it watching other leaders? Was it, uh, having a team around you that sharpens some of the things, do you find that you yield more than you direct?

What is your leadership style and how has it developed over the years?

Kyle Idleman: You know, one of my favorite definitions of preaching, I don't know who said this. Uh, but it's truth through personality it's God's truth through who he made you to be. Hmm. I have discovered that's also one of my favorite definitions for leadership and for writing is that it's truth through personality.

It it's, um, being who you are. Um, it God's truth through, through who you are through who he made you. I'm really thankful that Bob gave me freedom to figure that out when I was in my mid twenties, um, you know, he would say, I, I felt plenty of pressure, you know, to, uh, do things the way they did it. And, um, But that didn't come from them.

And, and Bob would say to me, you know, we, we need you to be, you, you don't, you know, the church doesn't need another me, the church doesn't need another day. The church needs you to be you. And, um, and I grew into that. Like, I, I don't, I don't think I really understood that for a while. Um, but. But I have discovered that that's where I'm most effective.

If I doesn't mean I don't have parts of me that need to grow, you know, dramatically, but, but I don't need to try to be somebody else. And, um, I was reading, uh, I think I'll get the title right here. Eight paradoxes of, uh, leader mm-hmm . Um, and, and he goes through these leadership qualities and as he's going through those, I'm like, you know, So encouraging to me because there are things that I might have said 15 years ago where some of my weaknesses, and, and now I see them as, um, as a strength.

Like I mm-hmm I thought they were weakness because they were different than some of the leaders I really looked up to. And I thought, man, if I'm gonna lead, I need to be, I need to be, uh, You know, more of a, a choleric like Bob and I need to be more San like Dave and, and I wasn't either of those things and, um, and trying to be is exhausting.

Hmm. Um, so, so that, that, um, you know, that confidence in that piece of, Hey, I, I wanna be, I wanna grow, I wanna continue. You know, challenge myself and, and be aware of my weaknesses, but I, but I wanna be true to who God made me.

Rusty George: So define for us your personality.

Kyle Idleman: uh, well, I don't know. Uh I, I don't like personality tests.

Why don't, whatever people say, what any gram number are you? And I'm like, whatever, any Agram doesn't like any Agram like whatever personality test is it doesn't be an eight personality test.

Rusty George: Well, you strike me as somebody who, uh, even though you stand on a stage and talk, you are an introvert. Uh, you seem to be rather thoughtful, uh, rather than speak first and figure it out later.

You don't seem to process verbally. It's more internal. Um, am I getting

Kyle Idleman: any of this, right? Yeah. Yeah, you're good. But you know, I, I, so the introvert extrovert scale, you know, I compare myself to. Introverts that are hyper introverts. Uh, I won't mention any names, but, but other people that you and I know and love and I'm like, well, I'm not that, you know, I, I don't think.

And then I compare myself to people who are hyper extroverts and, uh, I'm like, well, I'm not that I definitely, you know, enjoy some, um, some time to myself. So I don't, I don't know that, uh, that I've found kind of the, oh, the camp that I feel most comfortable in. I love. Well, here's an example of this. As a pastor, I love meeting with people on the weekends.

I just don't like to stand around and, and shake hands and, and, you know, mm-hmm, , uh, small talk. So I'll meet with people before and after services. I'll meet with anybody in the church. Um, you know, and so before church, and, and, and after I'll sit down, talk to two or three people, 15, 20 minutes at a time. Um, be able to listen to them and pray for them.

And, and I really love that. Like that, that has been incredibly life giving for me. I don't, you know, I don't necessarily wanna just go sit in a room somewhere by myself. Hmm. Um, you know, I, I really enjoy sitting down and being able to have, um, You know, that kind of conversation with, um, with someone in the church, but yeah.

How would you describe yourself? That's a hard question, you know?

Rusty George: Well, I, I, I kind of came prepared for this, cuz I've been trying to figure that out for the last few years. Okay. And I think the better part of my life was. You know, when you're in your twenties, you're just replicating what your Bible college professors did.

Yeah. You know, then your, your thirties, you're, you're trying to replicate whoever the hottest preachers are right now. Yeah. And I, I think now that I'm in, you know, my well I'm 50, I'm not in my fifties, I'm 50 . Um, at the time this airs I'll be 51, but I, I think I, I'm kind of more comfortable in my skin and.

uh, the term I like to use is whimsical. Um, mm-hmm, it, it's easy for me to make a joke out of most anything. And I used to think that was a, a weakness, but now I think, you know, that's just, that's just who I am. And I find that the, the way I relate to a lot of people when I teach on the weekend is when I just make a, you know, an offhanded comment about an eighties song or a movie or a, you know, what might be going on in this text.

People lean in it's it's a level of authenticity that, that I, I have. So I've like you said, I've tried to embrace that rather than, you know, when I first got here, I'm trying to be Kyle. And then I was trying to be, you know, whoever the hottest preacher was down the street and now just to, you know, okay.

I'm no, I'm not the most, the deepest, most thoughtful person you've ever met, but I am whimsical and I'll try to make it simple for you. And that's my personality. so that that's my best shot

Kyle Idleman: at it. Yeah. Well, and that's, it's freeing to, to discover that I, in the middle of, uh, in the middle of COVID I had a, a friend of mine say, Hey, I, I think you should go talk to this.

I don't, I've never already told you this. I think you should go talk to this, uh, life coach , uh, executive coach. That's what he called him an executive coach. And, uh, and I'm like, yeah, you know what? I, I could use an executive coach. Like there was something about that that felt. You know, I, I, uh, felt appropriate yeah.

I was like, I should do that. It appeal to my ego in some way, I think. And, and so I, um, so I, I line up this guy to, uh, as an executive coach and I get maybe 45 minutes into the first session with him. And I'm like, oh, he's a therapist. like, weirdly, like he calls himself an executive coach. So people like me will go meet with him.

And, uh, and so I, I started, you know, meeting with him on a, on a weekly basis and I found it to be incredibly helpful to. You know, better understanding some of these things better understanding who God made me and, um, and how I need to honor that so that I can do what he's called me to do, um, for the long haul and, um, and not, not, uh, not wear myself out too quickly.

Oh,

Rusty George: that's a great word. I always love it. When our guests talk about their therapists or executive coach. Yes, no. Because we all need it. We need to talk to somebody. Okay. Uh, this, this has been awesome, but I, I, I really wanna talk to you about your writing because at some point early on you decided I need to write what, what, what led you to writing?

Because that's not something that's easy to do.

Kyle Idleman: Yeah. I didn't. Know that I wanted to do that. I'd always, manuscripted my sermons for the most part. Typically if I preach, I'll write out like, uh, 3,500 words and then I'll preach around 5,000. Uh, that's typically my spoken word count. So I, I, the majority of my sermon I would, I would write out.

So I enjoyed the, the writing process. Um, and, and yet I didn't, I didn't have much of a thought around writing a book, not because. I wouldn't have enjoyed doing it, but just because I felt like there was a lot of books out there , you know, I, right. I didn't feel like I had a lot to add to the conversation.

Um, one of the reasons I love that, you know, God's truth through personality as a writer is because I've learned that God uses different voices differently, you know, and the same way he uses churches and communicators. But, uh, but I had finished preaching a series. I don't know how long ago this was maybe 11 or 12 years ago.

Um, At church called not a fan. And, um, and I had a guy in our church who at the time was like a, a, a, some kind of vice president of marketing. I'll get the title, wrong, ed Zander, um, a publishing company. And, and he, he said, um, when I was done with that series, he said, Hey, if you turn that into a book, I, I think I can get it published for you.

And it kind of took my excuses off the table to do something that, cause I, you know, I thought about it, but. You know, um, I did not have the, I, I just couldn't imagine writing it and then trying to send it out. And I, you know, doing all of that. So he took, he took, kind of took that off the table for me, Don gates, um, who, you know, and, um, and, and so I wrote not a fan and, um, and, and God's timing was so good.

Cuz at that time I was thinking about going and doing something D. Um, I couldn't see myself staying in the role I was in for the next 10 or 12 years. Um, and then got opened up that door, uh, for riding and for some production work mm-hmm and I love doing that for, for that, that season. I still do some of that, but, um, But he opened up that door.

But if, if, if it, if sort of a Christ church, a perseverance scenario, , you know, author, I, God kind took away my excuses. And, uh, and, and I've discovered that I really love it.

Rusty George: Okay. So not a fan is your most successful book, but I've discovered books for like kids. Some, you know, you just have a different connection with what's.

What's your favorite book that you've written. I think it's

Kyle Idleman: important for people to recognize that the publishing world is a crapshoot. Like, yes, you don't have any, I like some of the best books out there you'll never know about cuz they don't ever really get off the ground. And some of the books that aren't really very good at all, just take off and you're like, wait, what?

Yeah. And, uh, and, and so, you know, as an author, I've, I've, uh, I've learned to kind of accept, you know, accept the reality of that and trust. You know, you do this as a stewardship, as an offering to God and he uses it. How, how however he wants. Uh, my favorite book that I've written was probably, um, a book called the end of me, which may have done worse than any other book.

Um, I don't really know the exact numbers, but I bet it did. I bet that's a true statement. And, but it was probably my favorite one that I wrote.

Rusty George: That's really interesting. I, I, I know that my favorite one. One that no one read, but my mother . Um, but I felt like, you know, that's me. Um, and, and a great point about that because, and I, I think it was Don gates that told me this publishers look at it as outta 10 books that they publish from different authors.

Five will be dreadful. You know, four will be okay. And one will be so successful. It will pay for all the rest of them. Yeah. Um, I've always been on the five that are dreadful apparently. So, uh, well you frustrating. Thanks for paying for it with not a

Kyle Idleman: fan it is frustrating. I I've maybe written, I don't know, eight or nine books and it's frustrating to feel like you get better at it.

Yeah, but the numbers don't necessarily reflect. Right. So I blame the reader. Exactly.

Rusty George: If you guys could read what I'm writing now, it's so much better than the early days.

Kyle Idleman: Okay.

Rusty George: Well, your latest book is called one at a time. Uh, where'd this idea come

Kyle Idleman: from, uh, you know, I, when I came from real life to Southeast, um, it's, it's really came from that season.

I, I was really overwhelmed when I first. Came to this church, uh, by how many people there were. And it was very easy for me to just stay up in my office and go to meetings. And I found about six months into it. I think I even talked to you around this time, about six months into it. I was pretty disillusioned with all of it.

And, um, you know, thought maybe I'd made a mistake and wasn't sure what God wanted me to do. And, um, and, and I was reading the, the narrative from Luke eight of, uh, the woman. With the issue of blood who reaches out and touches, uh, the hem of Jesus. And, um, she tries to disappear into the crowd mm-hmm and, and then there's this really beautiful verse there, as Jesus is looking for her, where it says, seeing that she could not go unnoticed mm-hmm

And, um, and when I read that, it, it, something clicked for me about ministry that you know, that my calling as a pastor. Was to make sure that, that people couldn't go unnoticed. That the, the one person who's trying to kinda hide in the crowd gets seen. And, and I don't feel like I'm really good at that, by the way.

Like, I don't feel like that comes naturally. I don't, you know, from a personality standpoint, that's not you, if you spend time with me, you don't think, oh, that's, he's that guy, like it really takes, uh, some work, but I love it. And I, I. I began to, to work at looking at ministry and calling through that, that lens at one at a time lens and become a collector of stories.

And then I, I, I started to look through, you know, the gospels. Just recognize how many narratives are one at a time narratives. Like that's, that's how Jesus did ministry. And then I saw within our church, just the opportunity to lead in that way, you know, where the more campuses we had and the more people who attended the more that value of Jesus needed to be, uh, emphasized.

And, um, and so I, I began to, uh, more intentionally. To lead as a pastor with that, with that value. Um, and we put together this app called, um, one at a time and, and I have people from our church share stories, kinda their one at a time stories on there. And, and it is incredibly inspiring because you just see the power where thousands of people, um, are.

Living out their faith, one person at a time, and it's not necessarily super dramatic. Uh, but that's kinda what I love about it. You know, mm-hmm, , they're learning and I'm learning to see those everyday opportunities, um, as gospel opportunities and, uh, and, and so. Recognizing that like as a church, if we can unleash that within our church, like our opportunity for influence and impact is profound.

I also would say that as a pastor, I know what it is to get caught up in like the, the numbers of things like, um, You know, how many copies of a book's book is sold or how many people attend or how many baptisms we had and, um, how many followers on social media. And, and it's not to say that, that some of those numbers Aren.

Important. I mean, they are, but that's not how you wanna measure your influence. Like we use the word influencer that way. It's like, well, how many, how many people do you have, you know, that are following you or commenting or sharing your posts or whatever it is. And, and I, I, I just reject that. Like, I, I, I really tried hard to not, um, Just to not have any space for that.

Mm-hmm and, um, I don't, I couldn't tell you, like, I, I couldn't tell you how many people we have at, and somebody is paying attention to that. I be, I just know for me, uh, I don't, I just don't need to go there. Like, it's just, that would not be the path, uh, that would be healthy for me as a pastor, as a leader.

And so, um, and, and, and so it really came out of that. Um, Hmm. Just watching. watching how that, um, you know, when my life reflects that, when I feel like I can tell one at a time gospel stories, then I'm much healthier ministry. When I in ministry, when I feel like I can't tell those stories, um, I don't have much to say, and I don't have much energy to say it.

Rusty George: That's really well said. I think we've all struggled with the numbers. They become a God to us. They become an idol, uh, when they're good, we think, oh, that's fantastic. When they're bad. We're we're at our wits end. I remember a few years ago, I decided I need to fast from the numbers. And I fasted for a few years.

Okay. And then another pastor, a mutual friend of ours said to me, you gotta look at 'em sometime cause you kind of need to know how to steer the ship. And so I found quarterly is a pretty good time just to take a look at things. That's good because eventually you just start, you know, if you have a bad weekend, then you think I'll fix it next weekend.

Well, yeah, the people. Weren't there. We'll be here and vice versa. So, Hey, this has been so rich and it's just been fun to talk to you. Uh, you're gonna be, uh, out our way this summer and, uh, I cannot wait for that experience to have you back at real life first time in the building. So that'll be fun. Yeah.

Uh, you know, Mo maybe that weekend, we'll just go back to the. So you can just have that experience

Kyle Idleman: again, let's not, um, let's not do

Rusty George: that for all of our, uh, listeners who think, I I'd like to get a copy of, uh, you know, one at a time, but more importantly, I'd like to share that with others, you have great resources out there, uh, for churches to utilize this, how can they find all this?

And what's the best next step for them?

Kyle Idleman: Uh, you'd probably just go into my website, kyleidleman.com. There's a bunch of resources on there and, uh, yeah, that'd probably be the place to go.

Rusty George: Okay. Well, Kyle, thank you so much for what you did at real life. Thank you for leaving real life because it allowed me to get here.

Um, but thank you for what you're doing for the kingdom, because it's, uh, it is really massive and it's really great and it's really personal through one at a time. So I appreciate it, buddy. Thanks brother. Great to talk to you. Well, thanks so much for listening. I think that you've got a lot out of that just as I did.

I so appreciate Kyle being on the program. If you would, would you leave a review and we will read it. In fact, we are collecting all the reviews that are being listed over the course of the summer. And we're gonna draw out of that list of reviews, a winner, and give an incredible prize to so stay tuned for that.

Let me read one right now. This comes from BL schools. Brittany writes, you should subscribe. I welcome this podcast into my latest episode folder. I always look forward to listening. It's helped me as a leader, and I have shared lots of episodes with friends and vocational ministry and some who are not.

So thank you, Brittany. Really appreciate that. And you too can be entered into this contest by leaving a review wherever you. Your podcast. So thanks so much for listening next week, we'll be back with brand new content. And my old buddy, Brad Williams is back and we have a discussion about simple leadership lessons for the summer.

So can't wait to talk to you, then.

Narrator: Take a moment and subscribe to the podcast so you'll get it delivered every week and subscribe to the Rusty George YouTube channel for more devotionals messages and fun videos. Thank you for listening to Leading Simple.