Simple Faith with Rusty George

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Rusty George
This episode is brought to you by Serve HQ.
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Intro/Outro
Welcome to Leading Simple with Rusty George. Our goal is to make following Jesus and leading others a bit more simple. Here's your host, Rusty George.

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Rusty George
The welcome back are welcome for the first time to leading simple. I'm your host, Rusty George. Really honored to have you with us. And I'm really honored to have our guests with us today. Dr. Crawford Lorrits is a sought after speaker. He's recently retired from his preaching post at a church outside of Atlanta, and he is nationally known.

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Rusty George
He's traveled the world. He's written books. He's changed lives. He's preached memorable messages. And he's just an all around incredible wealth of wisdom. I've been listening and reading information on Crawford Loritts and from Crawford Loritts for years, and the chance to actually interview him was a dream come true. I know you're going to appreciate what he has to say, whether you're a church leader or a leader in a church.

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Rusty George
You're going to really be blessed by what he's going to share with us today. Hey, we are sponsored by Serve HQ this month. Serve HQ provides leadership training videos for your people so that you can upload your own or you can use some of theirs to really bless a lot of people. So make sure that you check it out.

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Rusty George
servehq.church to find out more from them. Okay. Well, today we get to hear from Dr. Loritts. Here we go. Dr. Crawford Loritts, am I saying your last name right? I want to get that right.

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Crawford Loritts
You hit it right on the nail on the head.

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Rusty George
It's all right. Tell us about yourself. I mean, I feel like I know you. I've been listening to you for years. Our audience may not. Yeah. Where are you from? And give me the. The journey of yourself.

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Crawford Loritts
Okay. Well, I was born in Newark, New Jersey, and spent the first 12 years of my life there. And then our family moved to Plainfield, New Jersey, a come from a just wonderful background, great Christian family. And I gave my heart to Jesus when I was 13 and a half years old, almost 14. And I preach my first sermon when I was 16 years old, although I tell people I wouldn't listen to anything I had to say until I was in my late twenties.

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Crawford Loritts
But and I went to a small church there in Plainfield, New Jersey. That's all within the metropolitan New York area. And our pastor had a real heart for young people and just encouraged us. And and I just had this desire as a teenager to share my faith with with my friends. And I then started speaking youth groups and other things like that.

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Crawford Loritts
And yeah, so I went to college in Philadelphia place called Philadelphia College of Bible is now called Canon University. That's where I met my bride and we got married. I still in undergraduate school and celebrate our 50th wedding anniversary last year 2021. And and so she's just been the joy of my life. After graduating college, I spent time with a group called American Missionary Fellowship as an evangelist with them for four years.

00;03;19;15 - 00;03;55;12
Crawford Loritts
And then in 1976, my wife and I moved to Dallas, Texas, where Tony Evans and I co-founded Oakland Bible Fellowship, was there for two years. And the church kind of grew rapidly and and then got recruited by Campus Crusade for Christ in 1978 and moved to Atlanta, Georgia, and began traveling, speaking on university campuses across the country, some out of the country, and spent 27 wonderful years on Stanford's Campus Crusade as a as a traveling speaker, but also as associate US director.

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Crawford Loritts
The last ten, 12 years of my time on on staff with them and and then in 2005 became senior pastor of Fellowship Bible Church, a great group of people here in Roswell, Georgia, which is a suburb of Atlanta and retired as senior pastor. Easter Sunday, 2021, April 4th, and was there for 15 years and almost 16 years. Great, great, great run.

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Crawford Loritts
We've got four children. Our son, Brian, he's a teaching pastor at the Summit Church in Raleigh, North Carolina. He's an author and speaker. And God's used him in a wonderful way and a daughter who lives in Memphis and with her family. And another son who's a pastor in Las Vegas and speaks a great deal. And then we have a daughter who is a physician.

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Crawford Loritts
She and her husband are both physicians and they're in Grand Rapids and we've got 11 grandkids. And so that's that's my story. And I'm sticking to it.

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Rusty George
Well, there's so many things that are I'd love to talk about, but the idea of your last Sunday at the church and your resignation Sunday is Easter Sunday. Boy, doesn't get any better than that, does it? I mean, I've often thought on Easter when I drive away from the church and it doesn't get it doesn't get better. And you decided just to walk away?

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Crawford Loritts
Yeah, I chose that because I wanted I wanted my last Sunday to make a statement that it's all about Jesus. It's all about the resurrected Christ. And it's been a privilege to serve him. And He's been a theme of my life in ministry there. And but after I retired from the church, when I retired from ministry, I head up, started an organization called Beyond Our Generation.

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Crawford Loritts
And and I just want to put wind in the sails of emerging leaders and be a cheerleader for them. People did that for me. They saw stuff in me that I didn't see myself. They believed in me and along the way. And so that's that's what we're doing right now.

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Rusty George
Well, I love that you mentioned Campus Crusade. Now it's known as Cru. Yeah, I did work in campus ministry to some extent via a church, not necessarily just campus ministry and had a great relationship with the people at crew. Yeah. Bill Bright was the the architect behind so much of that. I'm sure you worked closely with him. He was a legend.

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Crawford Loritts
Yeah, we lost him a few years ago.

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Rusty George
What? What did you learn from him that you still think about today?

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Crawford Loritts
Oh, my goodness. So many things. Number one, he's he's probably the godliest man I've ever met in my life, you know? And I learned from him, just watching him, that success is spelled focus and faithfulness. Wow. Focus and faithfulness. And I also learned that leadership is all it's about clarity. It's about clarity. And he was very clear. Very clear.

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Crawford Loritts
Although Cru is a massive organization, I served on the board now. And, you know, we've got, what, 20,000 staff members and, you know, 180 and 90 countries of the world and big budgets and all that stuff. And you might think that the founder of that was very complex. No, he was not. He was very simple. He was very clear.

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Crawford Loritts
Never moved away from from the focus on winning people to Christ, building them up in their faith and challenging to go to the world with the gospel. And that clarity benchmark my leadership and that that's what leadership is really all about. And he was just terribly focused and in a in a in a wonderful way. Also, he was authentically humble and a very, very, very others oriented.

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Crawford Loritts
And if you were around him, he had this uncanny ability. And I know this sounds like a cliche to make you feel like the most important person in the room. I'll tell you a quick story. When I joined Staff 1978, his assistant, we were out at Arrowhead Springs at the time and knew staff training. That's you know, that's in Southern California outside of San Bernardino.

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Crawford Loritts
And so one of his assistants said to me, Sir, would you like to ride with me to the airport to pick up Dr. Bright? And he was coming in. I said, I'd love to. And so we get in the car to go. And his assistant told me, he said, Now he may not. He's got some things that he needs to take care of between now the time we get back to the get back to to Arrowhead Springs, he's got to leave for an international flight in the morning.

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Crawford Loritts
And he had this thick folder that that thing must have been about three inches. And he said of stuff that he just needs to look through. So so we get in and I'm in the back seat and he he he gets in it. He gets in the car and his assistant just hands him this folder and and Dr. Bright takes the folder and looks at me and he says, Crawford, tell me about yourself.

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Crawford Loritts
Tell me about your vision. And you know, and I'm talking then, but I'm getting nervous because he's got to get this stuff done. And he just pushed it aside and put his arm around me in the backseat and just ask me about my family, ask about my heart, my life, my vision, all of that. And now I'm sure he stayed up late that night getting that stuff done, but that deeply impressed me.

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Crawford Loritts
Wow. That it's all about people. And here this guy is the leader of the world's largest Christian organization of its kind and, you know, I'm just kind of like I'm a novice new staff. And he just made me feel like I was the most important person in the world that Mark me deeply.

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Rusty George
What a great story. Oh, that's fantastic. I'm curious about here you are traveling around, speaking so much. And as communicators, you know, we we feed off a lot about our audience, you know, learning who they are because preaching at a at fellowship bible was a whole lot different than traveling around.

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Crawford Loritts
Oh, yeah, that's right.

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Rusty George
How did you you know, just from the speaking standpoint, how did you maintain connection? You know, what were the kind of the talking points in your mind that you thought everybody is going to relate to this regardless, wherever I am, that you felt like you could hit no matter if you were overseas or you were down the street.

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Crawford Loritts
Well, you know, I think you you there there's a big difference. And you nailed it between speaking with a round trip ticket, you know, traveling and speaking to a place and then preaching at a pastoring at a local church. Right. When you're traveling and speaking, they expect you to land a plane. In other words, that that that message disclosure toward you're not necessarily trying to build something through that message.

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Crawford Loritts
Now, I do say this to younger speakers. If you're invited to speak at a conference, you're not there. You know, it's not a gig and you're not there to do your own thing in this kind of thing that's self-serving. You know, find out what's the purpose of the event and how can I contribute to the translation and that vision of reality.

00;11;08;23 - 00;11;41;06
Crawford Loritts
And so you do need to be aware of that, and that is just not a gig. Okay. You're in it's not speech making. It's a up. But but in terms of pastoring, the big difference is that you're you're building something. And typically, if you're doing a series of messages, it's connected to number one, where the church is what's taking place there and you get all these things in the back of your mind that you're trying to connect the hoses and, and, and the climax of your message.

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Crawford Loritts
It may not be that individual message. It could be two or three messages down. You're trying to build something. Now, the truth of the matter is, though, I mean, honestly, people don't go to church is as consistently as we like to think, even as a pastor say, so that, you know, every message does need to have some closure to it, because chances are you're not going to see those people for another couple of weeks.

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Crawford Loritts
Right?

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Rusty George
Right, right.

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Crawford Loritts
Even the most faithful ones. So but I think I think that's kind of the difference there. You're shepherding people to a direction. And when you're on a platform and invited speaker, you're delivering a message at an event.

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Rusty George
Right.

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Crawford Loritts
So that's that to me, that's a different mindset there.

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Rusty George
You know, I was going to ask you about this later, but we'll go to it right now. I mean, so much has changed between those days and now and specifically since COVID and now in people's regularity of attending church. I mean, even before COVID, we were noticing, you know, what are the stats? Say one out of four weeks people were coming in and now it's like one out of six.

00;12;49;01 - 00;13;08;19
Rusty George
Yeah. So it almost is like you are a bit of a of a traveling speaker to some degree because it's a new audience every weekend. Yeah. That whole idea that, you know, like our mutual friend Andy Stanley talks about of it's a six part series, but it's all one sermon just kind of building.

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Crawford Loritts
Yeah, yes.

00;13;09;07 - 00;13;19;26
Rusty George
You don't get that anymore. I mean, what are you noticing about the trends in the church right now and how pastors should flex with that?

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Crawford Loritts
Yeah, I mean, you know, you actually answer the question, by the way you phrased it. I think we're in a season now that requires great flexibility and not to be tied to any one main deliverable. You know, you have to realize that your goal your goal is to present people mature and Christ if you're the pastor of a church.

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Crawford Loritts
And so you've got it. You've got to understand that there are many touches and you've got to set people up and and there are many ways of ministering to them. However, the church gathered is still the most important. And I tell people preaching is not everything in a church. That's absolutely right. But preaching lights all the fires in the church.

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Crawford Loritts
And so you you have to be you know, you have to use media. You've got to figure out ways of engaging people on their turf. However, I don't want to I don't want to give up too much of this because that there is a need for people to gather together. You know, as my friend Tony Evans says, that, you know, you people say, well, I go to church online.

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Crawford Loritts
No, you did. You didn't go to church online. You didn't. You heard hymns, you heard a message, and you heard a great speaker online. You took notes online, but you didn't go to church online. There is something about physical, visible presence. And so I think we need to encourage people to get there. But at the same time, we also need to be thinking about multiple ways in which to deliver the message.

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Crawford Loritts
We've got to, you know, shorten it sometimes and utilize social media and all these other things. The goal is to get the message in the hearts and minds of the people. So we have to be flexible. Hmm.

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Rusty George
I'm curious about that because I do hear that a lot. I went to church online, which means it was on in the background while they were making lunch or something like that.

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Crawford Loritts
Yes.

00;15;22;18 - 00;15;47;28
Rusty George
But then I hear people that show up and say, well, I didn't get anything out of that. And I think, well, it wasn't all for you. And it's not just a spectator sport. And this is just off the cuff. And I think about this a lot. But I'm wondering what your answer would be. Walk me through what a really great church experience should look like for a fully devoted follower of Jesus.

00;15;47;28 - 00;16;06;09
Rusty George
How should they prepare? How should they arrive? How should they interact? How should they view that experience rather than just thumbs up, thumbs down? I like the songs I did and I liked the teaching I didn't. How does it become a church gathered rather than just a service consumed?

00;16;06;09 - 00;16;38;06
Crawford Loritts
Well, you know, I think it begins with how you think. Okay. That's where it starts with. And part of the problem is, is that we have trained people to be consumers and talked about guys like myself. Mm. And in our pursuit of relevancy, we have to keep in mind that the rudderless pursuit of relevance will make us paradoxically terribly irrelevant, because in our souls we want noble and the word worship.

00;16;38;06 - 00;17;05;19
Crawford Loritts
We have to help people understand what worship means. The word worship, the first mention of worship the Lord first mentioned, is back in Genesis chapter 22, when Abraham is offering up his son Isaac, and worship has to do its sacrifice. Worship is not about me. It's not really about what I like. That's good worship. Worship is engaging with the God of the universe.

00;17;05;19 - 00;17;28;04
Crawford Loritts
We gather together to exalt him, and we anticipate that he has something to say to us. Now, it's not a question of whether or not we like it now. There is a tension here, right? And we shouldn't be jerks. And, you know, if you're planning worship service, you should and shouldn't be boring. And and and you need to do your work.

00;17;28;04 - 00;17;52;29
Crawford Loritts
You need to understand where the people are coming from. Obviously, you need to put the clothes of the people wrapped around what you're trying to deliver. All of that is true. But if you're going to get the most out of a worship service that requires sacrifice and maturity and understanding that it's not about me, the music is not about my preferences because what I don't like the guy next to me might love.

00;17;53;11 - 00;18;14;26
Crawford Loritts
And if I'm a mature Christian, I'm going to say, Well, you know, that's not my genre, but man, if this guy is engaging with Jesus with that, bless the Lord and I'll raise my hands to it. So I think we've got to get away from from the entertainment model. Hmm. Now, again, I got to be careful with that because I don't think there's anything wrong with liking church.

00;18;14;26 - 00;18;40;08
Crawford Loritts
And I don't think there's anything wrong with with with smiling and and and programing things that help people to have fun. I don't think there's anything wrong with that necessarily. But we have to remember that we're we're there we're there not to vote on how good things are going. We're there to engage with the God of the universe and that God has something to say that's well said.

00;18;40;24 - 00;19;00;23
Crawford Loritts
And then we have to help them. And this is our fault. This is our fault. This is this is this is a leadership issue. Right to a leadership issue. I got to help people understand the difference between preaching and speechmaking. For example, the preaching is not speechmaking. Preaching is a word from God for the people at the moment in his history.

00;19;00;28 - 00;19;23;26
Crawford Loritts
So there is an expectation that I've got to cultivate in the hearts and minds of the people that I'm shepherding, that when they come, God has something to say to me. Hmm. Speech making has to do with putting things together. It's audience centered and you know, and there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. But you just gave a speech and they like your stories and your illustrations and from your application points and we like that.

00;19;23;26 - 00;19;49;07
Crawford Loritts
We'll vote on that. That's good. But, you know, when you hear from God, he might he might shatter your expectations and he might make you feel uncomfortable. And if you leave a worship service always feeling good, then something's wrong. Mm. Something's wrong. You, you ought to sometimes. Yes, we ought to feel great, but sometimes we really do. Feeling convicted.

00;19;49;20 - 00;20;10;03
Crawford Loritts
Mm hmm. Depending on what God has said to us. So I don't know. I mean, you're asking a guy. I'm at an age right now in a stage of my life where I think sometimes we've gotten too cute for our own good. And so we're getting what, what, what? You know, we're getting the response. We're training people to respond the way we have.

00;20;10;26 - 00;20;16;15
Crawford Loritts
But we've trained them. Right. And so I don't know if that makes any sense. And no, it.

00;20;16;15 - 00;20;45;13
Rusty George
Makes a lot of sense. And I think a lot of us overcovered the pastors. I was talking to. We were all thinking we have not done a good job disabling our people if they are behaving this way when we're shut down or we're open or during the political season, race riots, all these things. Tell me a little bit about just from your perspective, because you're a little further down the line, you've seen a lot more things than than many of us have over the last couple of years.

00;20;45;13 - 00;20;50;15
Rusty George
What did you see the church do you were proud of? What did you see the church do that broke your heart?

00;20;51;03 - 00;21;10;28
Crawford Loritts
Well, you know, I, I I'm a fan of the emerging leaders in the church now. I just really think, despite all the other stuff, we'll get to that in a second that that's kind of like cratered me a little bit here in recent years. I think that there are young leaders now with vision and who are doing incredible work.

00;21;10;28 - 00;21;47;00
Crawford Loritts
They they're they're they're impacting at risk communities, you know, establishing churches in rural communities in these urban areas. And the leadership is out there. And so I'm a big cheerleader for that group that's 45 and younger man. I give them a standing ovation and I'm very encouraged. I really am. I'm very encouraged. I'm encouraged with their clarity. This seems to be an a new movement over the last, I would say, 15 years of guys who are who are excellent communicators and Bible preachers who preach with courage and relevance and clarity.

00;21;47;10 - 00;22;14;08
Crawford Loritts
And and so I'm I'm excited about that. I really I really am. I also use the term flexibility. I think we have become far more flexible in recent years in terms of how we do church, how we approach things. And and I'm excited about about that. I'm also excited and this is going to be a little bit of a paradox because this is also the other side of this is a discouraging thing.

00;22;14;21 - 00;22;41;04
Crawford Loritts
I'm also excited, despite the nonsense and confusion with all the racial unrest, misunderstanding and stuff that's taking place, one of the fastest growing segments of the church today is the multiethnic church in spite of that. Hmm. In spite of that. So I'm very encouraged about that. And I can go on and on about those things. Now, some of the downsides here, you know, I just want to be straight with you.

00;22;41;04 - 00;23;11;13
Crawford Loritts
I am I have been embarrassed and ashamed of how many evangelicals have acted over the last ten years. Hmm. Culminating over the last four or five years. It has been horrendous. It has been embarrassing. You know? No, we have we have bought into a culture war theology that that has a limited menu of the sins that we denounce.

00;23;12;12 - 00;23;38;13
Crawford Loritts
Now, I might agree with some of what they're saying, the sense that are and maybe even politically. But I think what is taking place is that we've created this angry evangelical and we're putting primary passion and the secondary issues. Mm hmm. And what's being. What's being lost is authentic love, authentic compassion, the beauty of Jesus. And I just.

00;23;38;14 - 00;24;05;11
Crawford Loritts
I just don't like the brand we're getting. We're getting too close to power. And and a friend of mine says. Says it this way. And I think we've gotten I think, quite frankly, quite frankly, we have gotten to too close, too politically. We've gotten too too intertwined. And a friend of mine says that, hey, look, when the church goes to bed with politics, it's the church that gets pregnant and the offspring doesn't look like our father.

00;24;05;28 - 00;24;32;11
Crawford Loritts
And I think, you know, that's good. We we just need to be careful. And so we get we've attached all these barnacles to the gospel. And the problem is, is that, you know, we're unbelievers have this one swim through all of this contaminated water to get to fresh water. And so we need to be clear and pure about the gospel, about what it is.

00;24;32;22 - 00;25;06;00
Crawford Loritts
And that has disappointed me, you know, very, very deeply. And I'm not being political here. I'm just saying that that we have we have erected barriers to people getting to Jesus. And and we've become cluttered. And we've and I think in many respects, we've lost our prophetic integrity, because once you get associated the we get associated to a political party too closely, this kind of thing, then we get myopic and you end up trading you end up trading caricature.

00;25;06;06 - 00;25;26;05
Crawford Loritts
You end up. Yeah, that's right. The entertaining character trading character for cause whenever you trade character for cause, you're going to reap corruption and confusion and I think we've seen that some of that. So you didn't ask me all of that. But that's that's that's what I have been terribly concerned about in recent years.

00;25;26;21 - 00;25;46;12
Rusty George
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00;25;46;18 - 00;26;07;20
Rusty George
Serve HQ is simple video training courses that help you equip volunteers and develop leaders. You can create your own training or use their video library. You can even automate next steps to onboard new people. Check it out at Serve HQ Dot Church. Now back to our conversation. Well, thank you for sharing that. I was hoping you would go there.

00;26;07;20 - 00;26;27;06
Rusty George
I've heard you talk about that to some degree. And I'm fascinated by what you said, though, about the the the one encouraging thing is the multiethnic church growing. Why do you think that is? Because there was so much division. Yeah. Was it the churches that decided we're not going to jump to one side or the other, we're going to embrace all and be pure about the gospel.

00;26;27;06 - 00;26;28;29
Rusty George
And it just began to grow.

00;26;29;14 - 00;26;53;09
Crawford Loritts
Yeah, I think it's that. But I also think, you know, it gets back and it's, it's that younger crowd that I like. I'd like the independence of that younger crowd that it's that 45 and younger who have been clear they have a good handle in terms of what the gospel is all about and what the church should look like.

00;26;53;26 - 00;27;24;03
Crawford Loritts
And they have a clear vision of the Ephesians chapter two that that the church should be, wherever possible, the risk visible representation of the Kingdom of God in the context of human history, and that we need to live out that identity of having been reconciled. So I think that groundswell is hasn't gone away. And I think some of these churches that are led by these younger leaders, they're getting it.

00;27;24;16 - 00;27;57;24
Crawford Loritts
Yeah, they're getting it. They're not as mired in and provincial, sometimes denominational loyalties and these kinds of things. And so it's it's refreshing. And I, I think that's the case. Now, some of the larger, older churches where a number of African-Americans and other minorities were going, you know, in recent years, a lot of those churches, a lot of black folks left those churches and a lot of Hispanic folks left those churches because of, you know, just the issues and how they were handled and not feeling embraced.

00;27;58;20 - 00;28;11;21
Crawford Loritts
But, yeah, you know, I think the the the other ones are growing, the newer ones and and and their leaders out there that are pounding in the table and being clear about what the gospel implies.

00;28;12;22 - 00;28;33;26
Rusty George
Along with that comes the people that have walked away. And we're hearing this growing term deconstruction or deconstructionism. It's basically people from that are just deconstructing a lot of different things. For some, it could just be a religious system. For others it's a set of beliefs. For some, it's just a set of behaviors. What are you seeing when it comes to that?

00;28;34;17 - 00;28;47;13
Rusty George
What are you seeing in regards to those that are leaving the church and then blaming it on, you know, a lack of faith or there is no God or we can't trust the Bible. Is it really more of church hurt? What are you seeing there?

00;28;48;02 - 00;29;15;21
Crawford Loritts
Yeah, I think it's a number of factors. I think church hurt it. Profound disappointment goes back to all of that where they've seen some disingenuous Christians. Not only that, they've seen abusive abuse of power and all of these things. And then they say, I don't don't want to have any of that. And then what ends up happening is, is that they make a foray.

00;29;15;21 - 00;29;38;22
Crawford Loritts
They they they step back and then they allow patterns for the culture. They make assumptions about the culture where they are, and they embrace those things and then they edit the church. And therefore, then they they they deconstruct their faith that way. Mm hmm. And, you know, some some deconstruction is positive, though.

00;29;39;04 - 00;29;40;15
Rusty George
Correct? I agree.

00;29;41;01 - 00;30;04;16
Crawford Loritts
Some deconstruction is fine, but I think there needs to be deconstruction in terms of, you know, I went back and said the barnacles that have been attached to the gospel, some of that said, we need to identify what what is scripture and what is just legalism and what are set of assumptions that we've made or are I mean, you know, and and so we need to deconstruct that.

00;30;04;27 - 00;30;25;28
Crawford Loritts
Hmm. That's a healthy thing because it leads to a purity and a reconstruction that is mired in the text of scripture, the objective propositional statements of the Word of God. And so I don't think we need to be afraid of that. But a lot of the deconstruction that takes place is that people have moved through the culture and they've stopped questioning the culture.

00;30;25;28 - 00;30;56;05
Crawford Loritts
They they've made a set of assumptions that they bought into and that culture has now become the standard by into which they judge the church or they judge truth. And and so I think that, you know, that's that's kind of how I feel, although it's more complex than that. But I do I do believe that as as as Christian leaders, as pastors and church folk, we got to be very careful that we don't give the devil a stick to hit us upside the head with it.

00;30;56;06 - 00;31;16;27
Crawford Loritts
We got to stop being so disingenuous. We've got to be very careful that that we don't we don't import things that are not a part of the gospel. Hmm. And that we don't. We don't make preferences equal to biblical convictions and truth. You know, and and I do think young Christians have been offended by that. They've been hurt by that.

00;31;17;25 - 00;31;21;13
Crawford Loritts
They've been abused by those things. And so, you know.

00;31;22;02 - 00;31;43;18
Rusty George
You've mentioned this now a couple of times. I'd love to hear you talk more about it. The barnacles we've attached to the gospel, the stick we keep giving the devil, what are the things that our preferences that we've turned into propositional truth from the gospel. I mean, obviously we can think about politics and our our persuasion there, where we basically ask Jesus to endorse our beliefs.

00;31;44;03 - 00;31;47;16
Rusty George
But but what are some other things that you're seeing the church get caught up in?

00;31;48;00 - 00;32;19;27
Crawford Loritts
Well, it's it's like, well, you take the Christian school movement, for example. I mean, I'm not I'm not knocking that some of our kids with the Christian schools in our church had a Christian school. And we you know, that we helped establish. And so I'm not knocking that. But whenever you stand up and say that that, you know, the only way to teach a child, your child, a biblical worldview and not to get the world to really contaminate his thinking is kind of thing is to protect their minds and protect the content that they're getting and then protect the environment.

00;32;19;27 - 00;32;56;15
Crawford Loritts
And the Christian school is the only way of doing that. I get problems with that. Yeah. You know, where do you find that? And or the homeschool movement or these other things where we're now again, these are great movements, don't get me wrong. And I don't I think I think Christian worldview is very important, but you can't impact that when you don't come in contact with and your child has been given has been given the great commission and declared to be soft and light and if I understand that passage in Matthew five that's talking about proximity to that which needs to the salt needs to be put on in the darkness that needs that light.

00;32;57;03 - 00;33;25;12
Crawford Loritts
And so you got to be very careful that you don't you don't take your conviction and make that, you know, the 67th book of the Bible. Hmm. And so then we get confused. And the other one is, you know, Christian nationalism, assuming that Jesus died to save Western civilization. Mm hmm. No, Jesus didn't die to save Western civilization.

00;33;25;22 - 00;33;47;01
Crawford Loritts
He died that everybody in Western civilization might have an opportunity to be saved. Mm hmm. And so not assuming. Not assuming that. Hey, look. And by the way, I'm a patriot, too, okay? And let me just say that I'll die for the freedoms of this country and this kind of thing. I really am. But you got to know the difference.

00;33;47;17 - 00;34;18;26
Crawford Loritts
You got to know the difference between I mean, that that I am no more as an American Christian, I'm no more significant and important as my brothers and sisters. You know, in rural Zimbabwe or in rural Indonesia or or wherever. Mm hmm. And so you have to tone down your language and stop making assumptions about the truths of God's word and see it for what it really is.

00;34;18;26 - 00;34;26;03
Crawford Loritts
And so I think that the so all of these all of these things, these are barnacles, right?

00;34;26;13 - 00;34;26;24
Rusty George
Right.

00;34;27;05 - 00;34;47;07
Crawford Loritts
And part of part of this whole the reason why we get caught up with this stuff is the lazy thinking that we have as Christians. Mm hmm. You know, we allow some strong personality with strong convictions to pontificate, and all of a sudden, we assume that everything that a person says is is true and right. And it's. It's not necessarily so.

00;34;47;11 - 00;35;07;26
Crawford Loritts
Mm hmm. So we need we need to get back to the purity of God's word what it's all about. I mean, one of the things and I'm glad we're breaking out of this now, you know, is that sometimes when we talk about justice issues, for example, we have a very narrow view about justice issues or about or about life.

00;35;08;14 - 00;35;32;22
Crawford Loritts
And so we think, okay, now, if a Christian, you're going to be pro-life. I am pro-life. And I unashamedly and I'm glad that Roe v Wade was overturned and all this other kind of stuff. However, to be pro-life in the Bible means it means human flourishing. Mm hmm. Completely. It means that the conceive must live, the living must be cared for.

00;35;32;29 - 00;35;48;22
Crawford Loritts
And the poor and the oppressed must be defended. Mm hmm. That's what that's what. That's what God means by all of that. Mm hmm. And so we get a narrow framework, and then we attach that and whatever. So that's some of what I mean.

00;35;48;27 - 00;35;50;16
Rusty George
From the womb to the tomb, right?

00;35;50;20 - 00;35;52;20
Crawford Loritts
Absolutely. Absolutely.

00;35;53;27 - 00;36;20;27
Rusty George
You lived through the sixties and saw the great division in our country during that time. Many people are comparing what we've experienced over the past couple of years to the late sixties, cultural unrest and upheaval and big, you know, shifts in the way that we think and church and God and politics and all that. Do you see any similar eighties does that give you pause for concern going forward?

00;36;20;27 - 00;36;30;12
Rusty George
Does it give you any hope? Do you see this kind of us crawling out of this better, different? What are you seeing from that perspective?

00;36;30;29 - 00;36;53;17
Crawford Loritts
Well, it's confusing to me, to be honest with you, because it's layered. And I don't want to get into some type of binary conclusions here. But I think, you know, my older son asked me this, oh, dad, what's the difference between, you know, the aftermath of the sixties, you know, the seventies and eighties and where we are right now?

00;36;54;03 - 00;37;16;09
Crawford Loritts
And I said to him and I surprised him. I said, it's worse now. Hmm. Worse in the sense of the conversation. Certainly things have gotten better in terms of laws and this kind of thing and statistic, the growth of the middle class and minority kids, all that stuff. I can't argue with that. Many things have gotten better. But in terms of the polarization, it's worse now.

00;37;17;02 - 00;37;48;14
Crawford Loritts
Mm hmm. It's absolutely worse. The lack of civility now. Yeah. We can have civil conversation and discourse about these issues coming out of the sixties and the seventies and eighties. We could talk about these things, but right now, it's it's like it's like everybody has a oh, a a cup of hot coffee, steaming, I mean, just scorching and hot coffee that's filled to the brim.

00;37;48;25 - 00;38;18;15
Crawford Loritts
And we're bumping up against each other and then we get mad at each other because you burn me. And we're just so on edge that we. We've just lost any sense of objectivity and civility. Mm hmm. And that's I think that's what's different right now, that we've we've allowed evangelicals have allowed ourselves to be weaponized. Hmm. I really believe that the political structures have used us.

00;38;18;16 - 00;38;44;24
Crawford Loritts
We've been courting power, but now they view us as a voting bloc. And because, you know, they'll they'll wink and nod and say, okay, we see your issues here. Here, like the five or six issues that you have. We'll give you that and this kind of thing. But unwittingly, we've ingested the power language and the and the, you know, the just the hostile stance for one another and passed it off as being prophetic.

00;38;45;13 - 00;38;50;05
Crawford Loritts
And it's it's just a confusing time right now. It really, really is.

00;38;50;05 - 00;38;52;15
Rusty George
I would imagine social media doesn't help that.

00;38;52;21 - 00;39;12;23
Crawford Loritts
Oh, no. And everybody wants to be a prophet. Right. And then we're then we're calling people that we just that who, you know, we disagree with. And we're calling them as being calling them unfaithful to the gospel and faithful to truth and and and then, you know, I scratch when I look at some of my friends who have been labeled unfaithful to the gospel, I've known them for years.

00;39;12;23 - 00;39;37;08
Crawford Loritts
And I said, That dude's more orthodox than you are, but it means what they mean by that is that you don't you don't agree with me politically. You don't know. You don't take this stand with me. Right. And so I think we could use a bit of what Paul told Timothy Wright when he said to Timothy, Hey, hey, buddy, the lord servant must not be quarrelsome.

00;39;37;08 - 00;40;02;03
Crawford Loritts
And that, you know, that word means in the great Greek text, it means that the Lord servant must not be combative. Hmm. But it seems like we're looking for fights right now. So I think, you know, my major concern is that, you know, the culture is culture. The culture is going to do what the culture does, okay? And lost people are going to do what lost people do.

00;40;02;27 - 00;40;19;07
Crawford Loritts
But my major concern is polarization that's taking place within the family of God. Hmm. That, to me, that is that is troubling. It is. It's It's disappointing. And frankly, I think it's unnecessary. Hmm.

00;40;19;14 - 00;40;32;02
Rusty George
So it is. You wrote a you've written a bunch of books, but you wrote one that I consider to be one of the best leadership books I've ever read called Leadership as Identity.

00;40;32;10 - 00;40;32;18
Crawford Loritts
Hmm.

00;40;32;26 - 00;40;41;01
Rusty George
For our listeners that have not read that, would you give us the the reason behind that book? What inspired that book? And what was your your your major thesis there?

00;40;42;06 - 00;40;59;09
Crawford Loritts
Yeah. In fact, I just the revised edition is coming out in February. Oh, great. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I years ago, I was asked to teach a course at Trinity Seminary on on leadership. The essence of biblical leadership. That sounds like a seminary course.

00;40;59;27 - 00;41;00;08
Rusty George
Yeah.

00;41;00;19 - 00;41;20;08
Crawford Loritts
And and so in preparation for the course, I had, you know, and I love to read about leadership. I read everything I can get my hands on about, you know, leadership from a Christian perspective. But as I read through a number of those books, I sort of pushed back a little bit and I thought to myself, these books, all of them very helpful.

00;41;20;08 - 00;41;42;20
Crawford Loritts
But I thought there was a I don't know, the Bible actually teaches that. And so I, you know, I actually pushed to the side and I thought to myself, okay, what is it that every great man or woman of God, what is it that they had in common that God trusted with his assignments? And so that was the inspiration for the course.

00;41;43;07 - 00;42;11;23
Crawford Loritts
Mm hmm. And having taught that course over the years and then people asking me and my students asking me, well, you know, write about this or whatever, the book came out of that. And the book is just really an expansion of the course that I taught on leadership at Trinity Seminary. But it answers the question, you know, what is it that every great man or woman of God, what the what that they had in common that God trusted with his assignments?

00;42;11;23 - 00;42;35;01
Crawford Loritts
And I you know, in the book, I point out that there are four critical characteristics. You know, and these things four characteristics should be true of everybody, every believer, but they were exponentially true of followers of Christ. And and that is brokenness, uncommon communion seven hood as an identity in radical immediate obedience to that in the book as you as you know.

00;42;35;03 - 00;42;35;11
Crawford Loritts
Mm hmm.

00;42;35;26 - 00;42;53;27
Rusty George
Well, that's what I love about it, is there's a lot of leadership books out there that are more tactical as far as here's what you do and here's how you gain a following and those kind of things. But this was here's who you're supposed to be. This is where leadership comes from. And that's the that's the beauty of the Bible, is it's just filled with a bunch of broken people.

00;42;53;29 - 00;43;18;09
Crawford Loritts
Yeah. Yeah. And let me just say something which loops back around to our previous you know leadership in the Bible. Prophetic. Hmm. Meaning that the leader has to be the portrait of the desired destination at which that entity needs to arrive. That's why character is everything. And so it is in terms of Christians, the church, the Church of Jesus Christ is a prophetic presence.

00;43;18;09 - 00;43;48;08
Crawford Loritts
It's a visible representation at which the culture should arrive. Mm hmm. And so the larger question is for the church is not not just whether or not we're speaking the truth, but are we portraits of Jesus? Mm hmm. Are the way we live? I mean, is that inviting to the culture? Does that tell the truth about Kingdom of God?

00;43;49;01 - 00;44;01;08
Crawford Loritts
Mm hmm. And so that's what leadership is all about. God is into incarnation, right? He's into presence. Not just proclamation, but the integrity and character behind what you say. So, yeah.

00;44;01;24 - 00;44;28;07
Rusty George
So well said. All right. I want to I like to ask this question to pastors, but you've already done this. And the question I usually ask is, what do you want to preach on your last sermon? Now, obviously, you're still preaching, but you you spoke on Easter. Yeah. Give me this. Your your favorite and not even favorite, but the final passage you'd like to preach from if you knew this is the last time you will preach.

00;44;28;28 - 00;44;37;25
Crawford Loritts
Hmm. Wow. That is a great question, huh? I'm actually torn between two.

00;44;38;03 - 00;44;40;17
Rusty George
Okay, I'll give you two. It's a two parter.

00;44;40;29 - 00;44;42;28
Crawford Loritts
Okay. Second, Timothy four.

00;44;43;15 - 00;44;43;28
Rusty George
Okay.

00;44;44;08 - 00;45;21;08
Crawford Loritts
Paul's eulogy of himself and I fought the good fight to finish the course. And that that text. But then, you know, you know, one that I'm drawn to is first KING Chapter two verses one through four. That's that's when David calls Solomon in and David is dying. Mm hmm. And, David, this is astonishing to me. He challenges Solomon to make three critical decisions that will cause him to make it home before dark to sustain his kingdom.

00;45;22;06 - 00;45;40;00
Crawford Loritts
You know, and I often quote this line. I heard this from a friend of mine a number of years ago, that when we're born, we look like our parents. But when we die, we look like our decisions. Oh, and David. David challenges Solomon and First Kings Chapter two verses one through four. Let me see if I can remember this.

00;45;40;00 - 00;45;57;11
Crawford Loritts
He challenges them to it, tells them decide to live courageously, decide to live obediently, and decide to live faithfully. And I just want to leave those footprints in the sand for for the next generation. So maybe that's what I would talk about.

00;45;58;11 - 00;46;08;17
Rusty George
Wow, that's fantastic. Here. I thought you'd go with the layup. John 316. Luke 15. Man, those are brilliant. I love that.

00;46;08;18 - 00;46;09;06
Crawford Loritts
I don't know.

00;46;09;18 - 00;46;26;23
Rusty George
Well, hey, thank you. Thank you for so much more than just the time we've had together today. Thank you for your legacy of leadership. Thank you for being a leader worth following. Thank you for being a person. That was a clear voice over these last couple of years. I've heard you interviewed multiple times. I heard you preach at North Point and.

00;46;26;24 - 00;46;45;08
Rusty George
Mm hmm. And it was it was so, so helpful for pastors like me that obviously, I tell people all the time that, hey, this was my first pandemic. Give me a little bit of grace. But very few could stand up and offer a clear word as how we should lead through. And you were one of them. So thank you for that.

00;46;45;08 - 00;46;46;08
Rusty George
I really appreciate it.

00;46;47;01 - 00;46;51;01
Crawford Loritts
Thank you so much. This has been a real, real treat. Blessings on you, my friend.

00;46;51;07 - 00;47;07;23
Rusty George
Thank you. My goodness. I'm going to listen to that several times. And I know there's somebody you want to share that with. And if you're not a pastor, share it with a pastor and say, think this will encourage you. He is such an incredible communicator and a wealth of wisdom, so make sure you pass on the words of Crawford.

00;47;08;22 - 00;47;24;22
Rusty George
Next week, we'll be back with brand new content as we move full throttle into the Christmas season. That's some great stuff coming up in the month of December that will help you and your church and your family experience. A great Christmas. So make sure you join us next week. And as always, keep it simple.

00;47;25;08 - 00;47;49;01
Intro/Outro
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